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CPM-154 VS CPM-S35VN

Discussion in 'Shop Talk - BladeSmith Questions and Answers' started by Ocelot85, Jun 11, 2019.

  1. CPM-154 @ 60-62 HRC

    10 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. CPM-S35VN @60-62 HRC

    10 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. Ocelot85

    Ocelot85

    407
    Feb 1, 2012
    It seems like both of these steels are competitive in pricing and availability. It seems like CPM-154 is tougher, and CPM-S35VN is better in wear resistance. Is that accurate? I will most likely make test blades in both in the future in a HRC range of 60-62 w/ cryogenic treatment. I'm curious which you would choose and for what reasons. Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  2. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero Triple B Handmade Knives, Big Brown Bear

    Mar 22, 2014
    Nah, S35VN is tougher and more wear resistant. The vanadium and niobium promote finer, harder carbides.

    CPM 154 is easier to work with grinding, handsanding and sharpening without fancy stones.

    Both make a nice knife with good processing and geometry.
     
    rodriguez7 likes this.
  3. Ocelot85

    Ocelot85

    407
    Feb 1, 2012
    Some of the charpy test information showed CPM-154 above S35VN. It was at a slightly lower hardness, but I would be curious how close they would be at matching hardness.
     
  4. Larrin

    Larrin Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 17, 2004
    I would agree with you but our toughness test did show superior behavior for CPM-154. Still a bit puzzling.
     
    rodriguez7, Ocelot85 and DeadboxHero like this.
  5. Ocelot85

    Ocelot85

    407
    Feb 1, 2012
    This is what caught my attention and caused me to start questioning how close they are.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  6. Larrin

    Larrin Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 17, 2004
    We tested as low as 58.2 Rc on the S35VN but the toughness wasn't higher than the values that I put on the chart. Higher austenitizing temperatures led to higher toughness in general, maybe from more retained austenite.
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Ocelot85

    Ocelot85

    407
    Feb 1, 2012
    The CPM-154 sample I saw on the chart was just under 60 RC I believe and around 17 ft-lbs? I would be interested to see how it tests at 61 and 62 RC.

    Beyond toughness I'm interested in edge retention, sharpenability, corrosion resistance also. I'm going to do some searching for CATRA results for both steels, I'll post up what I find later.
     
  8. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero Triple B Handmade Knives, Big Brown Bear

    Mar 22, 2014
    The S35VN survived. I'm sure it's because it was slightly softer more than anything. Still I had thought CPM154 would do the best.

    I'd be interested to test again with them all
    at 60rc. Probably just make charpy samples to send to Larrin thenstead, save time and money.
     
    drew1972, rodriguez7 and Ocelot85 like this.
  9. Willie71

    Willie71 Warren J. Krywko. Part Time Knifemaker Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Feb 23, 2013
    When I was starting working with stainless, I debated back and forth for a week, and randomly chose S35VN. The properties were very similar, and opinions were pretty evenly split. I don’t think you can go wrong with either.
     
    BITEME, Ocelot85 and DevinT like this.
  10. jdm61

    jdm61 itinerant metal pounder Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Aug 12, 2005
    Crucible says that CPM 154 is tougher than S35VN. My understanding is that the purpose of S356VN was to get the abrasion resistance of S30V but with more toughness.
     
  11. Ocelot85

    Ocelot85

    407
    Feb 1, 2012
    CPM-154: http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets2010/Datasheet CPM 154 CMv12010.pdf

    CPM-S35VN: https://www.crucible.com/PDFs\DataSheets2010\dsS35VNrev12010.pdf

    On the CPM-154 data sheet it looks identical in their toughness graph compared to S30V. Though they give no actual Charpy data to support the graph. Then on the S35VN sheet they give Charpy data and it show's S35VN as having scored 2 ft-lbs higher than S30V.

    @nsm Website show's CPM-154CM as having substantially more toughness on their graph than CPM-S35VN.

    http://www.nsm-ny.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=page.display&page_id=27

    So I'm confused, some sources say CPM-S35VN is tougher, some equal, and some not as tough as CPM-154.

    Then as far as wear resistance the CATRA data from the Crucible data sheet for S35VN say's it's an "estimate based off of market feedback" based off a 440C standard. Does anyone have a link with real CATRA data comparing these two steels at the same hardness and edge geometries? I'm sure that CPM-S35VN with it's Niobium and Vanadium carbide content will have superior edge retention I'm just wondering by what margin.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  12. Larrin

    Larrin Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 17, 2004
    https://knifesteelnerds.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Bohler-Uddeholm-CATRA.pdf
     
    Ocelot85 likes this.
  13. Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

    Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith ilmarinen - MODERATOR Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Aug 20, 2004
    I have used a lot of both. I settled on S35VN as my go-to stainless steel. The edge lasts a very long time and it can be made wicked sharp.
     
    Storm W, DeadboxHero and Ocelot85 like this.
  14. Ocelot85

    Ocelot85

    407
    Feb 1, 2012
    Considering the votes are split evenly for each, I would say that you're pretty spot on with that analysis.
     
    Willie71 likes this.
  15. Adam Buttry

    Adam Buttry

    572
    Nov 10, 2010
    Both are great steels. That said, I prefer XHP myself and use it for all my blades that size when stainless is desired.
     
    DeadboxHero likes this.
  16. Storm W

    Storm W

    243
    Feb 19, 2019
    I haven't tried the 154 CM but I have used the S35VN on one of my test loners as a 9" chef and have only had good feedback. I'm sure people have better HT than mine but I just ran it on the hard side of the recommend HT. I gave it a near zero edge and have had Zero chips and edge retention is great.
     
    Willie71 likes this.
  17. Stromberg Knives

    Stromberg Knives KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    732
    Jan 3, 2015
    For clarity and to avoid confusion: CPM154 =/= 154CM.
     
    DeadboxHero and mknife like this.
  18. Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

    Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith ilmarinen - MODERATOR Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Aug 20, 2004
    154-CM (Hitachi)= CPM-154 (Crucible)= RWL34 (Uddeholm) = Damasteel (Damasteel)
     
  19. Ocelot85

    Ocelot85

    407
    Feb 1, 2012
    I thought ATS-34 was the Hitachi equivalent.
     
  20. Stromberg Knives

    Stromberg Knives KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    732
    Jan 3, 2015
    I believe Larrin described this in one of his articles. CPM-154 is the powder metallurgy version of 154CM. So it would be a stretch to say they're the same. RWL34 is a product from Damasteel, not Uddeholm.

    Edit: Added some references.
    https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/05/21/154cm-development-properties-legacy/
    https://damasteel.se/about-us/
    https://damasteel.se/story-of-rwl34/
    https://www.uddeholm.com/app/upload...holm_Premium_Steel_for_Knives_Eng_1703_e6.pdf
     

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