Cracks at the cho: PICTURES ON Pg 3
- Thread starter SkagSig40
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Well so am i aside from numbers bought, and one thing you do NOT do to someone you claim to like, is complain of vast numbers of defects over a decade and not provide photograhic proof, and even that, only AFTER giving a maker a chance to make it right before throwing mud on their rep....
I would say the same thing to Moses himself had he posted such. With friends like this, who needs enemies?
I would say the same thing to Moses himself had he posted such. With friends like this, who needs enemies?
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I totally agree. I'm a bit mixed on this. I know Chris has been around for a long time, but I'm not sure what he is referring to or expecting to hear. As is usual, our fine forumite friends tend to get their dander up when a somewhat vague post is thrown up and left to stew. I don't think this is a bad thing as we have always watched out for HI's best interests. I'm not saying we should stick our heads in the sand and fingers in our ears to any issues or criticisms. Addressing these sort of things is what makes HI the best in the business. Still, I know how easy it is to get attached. HI hasn't been able to shake me after 13 years
Let's just keep our heads and our minds open, friends.
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I cant figure what he is after, either. Here is a photo of Chris Bs collection, posted for him by Bill Martino on 3/30/2002.
LINK
Subsequently he posted the thread I linked to in 2003. He was asked then to post photos of some of the many, many cracks he claimed to have seen. He was unable to do so, and suggested a search for Chris collection, which yielded the photo above. He also suggested a search for AK vs. wedding cake. I have searched all his posts containing the phrase wedding cake, (LINK), and found no photos, and no reference to cracks. Indeed, there are several references to the strength and superiority of the AK and HI khukuris in general.
Still, he repeats the claim of near-universal cho cracks in this new thread.
It seems he has a very long-standing obsession with a perceived fault - one which apparently only he can perceive - but nonetheless continues to expand his collection of the faulty items. As I indicated by the
emoticon in my first post, I am extremely puzzled by the whole thing.I saw immediately a long term member and no troll but the 2003 and 2015 posts claim vast numbers of defective goods which he continued to acquire despite claimed defects and makes no sense at all.
And again, to post of such vast numbers, never a shred of evidence, not give a maker a chance to make it right if a legit complaint (and am SURE someone would remember 70 or 80 returns from one guy), is the next best thing to being a troll short of being one.
I will give benefit of a doubt in that 12 yrs later the man can still not tell a crack from a scratch....but even then, a sending back to maker if a question of soundness, rather than post even a single photo on a maker forum, before giving maker a chance to honor warranty, is plain vile.....and to not even offer a huge number of photos to back up huge numbers of claims is even worse....
You bet i get steamed on ANY forum when some clown pulls that stunt.....as Sen Joe McCarthy once said, " if you sling enough mud, some of it is bound to stick".
And again, to post of such vast numbers, never a shred of evidence, not give a maker a chance to make it right if a legit complaint (and am SURE someone would remember 70 or 80 returns from one guy), is the next best thing to being a troll short of being one.
I will give benefit of a doubt in that 12 yrs later the man can still not tell a crack from a scratch....but even then, a sending back to maker if a question of soundness, rather than post even a single photo on a maker forum, before giving maker a chance to honor warranty, is plain vile.....and to not even offer a huge number of photos to back up huge numbers of claims is even worse....
You bet i get steamed on ANY forum when some clown pulls that stunt.....as Sen Joe McCarthy once said, " if you sling enough mud, some of it is bound to stick".
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Let it shake itself out. As with many forums, there are always the one or two, who wish to prove their loyalty by condemning before hearing someone out completely. If he has purchased that many blades from HI, and if he has mentioned this before, and has never had any problems on this forum, perhaps we could simple view some late images. It sounds as though he may be a long time collector, but perhaps not a user. Nothing wrong with that, but let it shake itself out. No one on this forum believes HI blades are inferior, or anything less than high quality. The proof is in the long time use and record of that usage.
I cant figure what he is after, either. Here is a photo of Chris Bs collection, posted for him by Bill Martino on 3/30/2002.
LINK
Subsequently he posted the thread I linked to in 2003. He was asked then to post photos of some of the many, many cracks he claimed to have seen. He was unable to do so, and suggested a search for Chris collection, which yielded the photo above. He also suggested a search for AK vs. wedding cake. I have searched all his posts containing the phrase wedding cake, (LINK), and found no photos, and no reference to cracks. Indeed, there are several references to the strength and superiority of the AK and HI khukuris in general.
Still, he repeats the claim of near-universal cho cracks in this new thread.
It seems he has a very long-standing obsession with a perceived fault - one which apparently only he can perceive - but nonetheless continues to expand his collection of the faulty items. As I indicated by the
Sounds like he may be looking at scratches, and perhaps as a collector and non user, he assumes these are cracks. I personally would like to have images. If we get the images, we can make a judgment call. if not, we can assume it's a non issue. It's that simple.
He states heavy use with cracked blade right at the start...and hard to shake sense out of what seems very much nonsense when looked at overall...and WE may know, but new folk will see his blazing headline and read his first few lines and read far less of any replies, and i think this guy knows that and and came back 12 yrs later and threw a molotov cocktail again, as if he did not hear any of this 12 yrs ago or have a chance to make his point back then as well.
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That's a lot of emotion, my friend. We also need to be concerned about any new owner, who may be afraid to even post a question due to some possible responses. The OP will make his case soon, or will not. If he can't produce any thing substantial, it dies there.
As i stated above, no matter maker or forum, any person who suspects problems should FIRST deal with maker....if not satisfied, and still feeling particularly honor bound or vengeful, should THEN go public with problem and be ready to back up claims with proof. THIS poster should have at least learned that simple fact in the intervening 12 yrs since originally putting this out. Even now, he replied he did not have a single photo but thought maybe he could get some....i do not consider this a legit post and i think any new reader would see the same trend....if they bothered to read all the way through...but we live in a headline world. The OP went through this entire drill 12 yrs ago and knew what the responses would be.
Dobe_1, I agree. I will rue the day I will have to post some real criticism, as some of our forum items go overboard.
As I have stated several times, no soft edge kukri would get to a user had they all been tested in the shop before leaving. This is a fix idea I have, and one that has been stated several times in the past by well respected and gone forum members.
There is a well-known, respected heavy user of kukris posting both here and on another forum, that stated he rolled in hard use 3 kukris. All from HI. With another company, he had an issue with 1 out of 4. I have no reason not to believe him. This made me look into that manufacturer and buy one. And I will most likely do so in the future, if those unpolished rough knives will live up to their name.
I have 2 HIs, first one holds an acceptable edge, and the 2nd one improves with sharpening, but the initial edge was way softer than that of any knife that should ever leave a shop. It may, or may not improve in the end. I know I have the warranty, but because of the laws in my country I won't be able to send it in for replacement, if neded in the end, after sharpening it who knows how many times and removing precious steel. So, I will need to be back to US to be able to do so. Again, if needed. This could very well mean one year to return a product.
So please, stop with the fanboyism and acting as some kind of a cult. I love you people, I come here for the god company, but some days I have second and third thoughts.
As I have stated several times, no soft edge kukri would get to a user had they all been tested in the shop before leaving. This is a fix idea I have, and one that has been stated several times in the past by well respected and gone forum members.
There is a well-known, respected heavy user of kukris posting both here and on another forum, that stated he rolled in hard use 3 kukris. All from HI. With another company, he had an issue with 1 out of 4. I have no reason not to believe him. This made me look into that manufacturer and buy one. And I will most likely do so in the future, if those unpolished rough knives will live up to their name.
I have 2 HIs, first one holds an acceptable edge, and the 2nd one improves with sharpening, but the initial edge was way softer than that of any knife that should ever leave a shop. It may, or may not improve in the end. I know I have the warranty, but because of the laws in my country I won't be able to send it in for replacement, if neded in the end, after sharpening it who knows how many times and removing precious steel. So, I will need to be back to US to be able to do so. Again, if needed. This could very well mean one year to return a product.
So please, stop with the fanboyism and acting as some kind of a cult. I love you people, I come here for the god company, but some days I have second and third thoughts.
The thread started may very well be a troll.
But does this mean that anyone else thinking of stating publicly any issue with their knives should not be permitted to do so? On what grounds?
One thing that I love looking back was that criticism was accepted and welcomed. I really hope this will stay like that. If not, as much as I love everything I found here and a well-made HI knife, top-notch customer support, probably the best in the business, I will just move to the other forum where people judge their knives as tools based on their intrinsic merits, and buy the "ugly" villager knives that stand up to the abuse kukris are supposed to.
I have heard no one mentioning there the "unsupported chopping phenomena" and other things that were never used back in the day. Anyone can browse the archives and make their own mind.
Sorry for being so much of a loudmouth. I have a problem with people being overprotective "by default", before anyone who's not saying how perfect anything sold here is, gets a chance to offer supporting evidence. And probably be gently corrected and offered advice.
For all that I know, the original poster may be the fattest troll ever, or a misguided guy that needs glasses. These knives stand or fall on their own merits, and "new people" that read the forums should not be considered collectively idiots by default.
One last thing: yes, it is good to test every knife you buy. Correct. But still, I see so many times talked around here about the high QA at HI. So that is what I would then expect when it comes to edge retention as well.
Should I also tell all the brokers using the trading platform I work on to beta-test my software on their time and money?
Let's just assume that your neck of Europe doesn't think sending "weapons" thru mail is a bad thing. But half of the kukri's price was shipping. Would it be that easy to send back a knife then?
Lemons do happen. Sure. But some...could be caught. Easily.
(Mtngnr, you were disappointed when so few people answered when you asked about using their kukris. I don't know - does that mean most are safe queens? If so - heat rating does not even count anymore.)
So please, once again, let's leave the fanboyism where it belongs. Without criticism, there is no improvement.
Should I also tell all the brokers using the trading platform I work on to beta-test my software on their time and money?
Let's just assume that your neck of Europe doesn't think sending "weapons" thru mail is a bad thing. But half of the kukri's price was shipping. Would it be that easy to send back a knife then?
Lemons do happen. Sure. But some...could be caught. Easily.
(Mtngnr, you were disappointed when so few people answered when you asked about using their kukris. I don't know - does that mean most are safe queens? If so - heat rating does not even count anymore.)
So please, once again, let's leave the fanboyism where it belongs. Without criticism, there is no improvement.
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I know for a fact any maker, as stated in this very thread, can put out a dud knife....this is not about freely discussing facts of the occasional dud.
Members here finding same poster stated same things over a decade ago with no proof at all, and then comes back with same thing 12 yrs later with VASTLY inflated numbers, and members defending the product and demanding proof, is no manner of "fanboyism"....it is common sense in a media where slander and misinformation rules.
The post is all yours and the original poster....i have no doubt occasional knives might crack at chos even, as from an engineering standpoint it seems a horrible idea....but it would not be khukuri without one, and user evidence both in Nepal where used far more often than here, and the small market here, not only suggests most worry is of no consequence...but as well suggests the original poster bald assertions of widespread failures are in error...let the free discussions continue, minus my own, of course.
Members here finding same poster stated same things over a decade ago with no proof at all, and then comes back with same thing 12 yrs later with VASTLY inflated numbers, and members defending the product and demanding proof, is no manner of "fanboyism"....it is common sense in a media where slander and misinformation rules.
The post is all yours and the original poster....i have no doubt occasional knives might crack at chos even, as from an engineering standpoint it seems a horrible idea....but it would not be khukuri without one, and user evidence both in Nepal where used far more often than here, and the small market here, not only suggests most worry is of no consequence...but as well suggests the original poster bald assertions of widespread failures are in error...let the free discussions continue, minus my own, of course.
I can see your point. And probably mised some nuances from the get-go, sorry.
Why not wait, still, for the user to come up with any proof? And call him out after he fails to do so. I am sure that he's either a troll, or doesn't know what he's looking at (and that would be a shame...).
Sorry - I wasn't "calling you out", it just happened this was a context where I had to write what I've seen here happening with the best intentions, I am sure, several times. I have stated in the past several times that I felt sometimes as the "devil's lawyer".
If I have offended you, I am sorry and beg your pardon. I should've found a better context to write about fanboyism and such.
And probably mised some nuances from the get-go, sorry.Why not wait, still, for the user to come up with any proof? And call him out after he fails to do so. I am sure that he's either a troll, or doesn't know what he's looking at (and that would be a shame...).
Sorry - I wasn't "calling you out", it just happened this was a context where I had to write what I've seen here happening with the best intentions, I am sure, several times. I have stated in the past several times that I felt sometimes as the "devil's lawyer".
If I have offended you, I am sorry and beg your pardon. I should've found a better context to write about fanboyism and such.
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It's always a fine line that we walk with our love of this company. HI has always been a transparent business. If there is an issue, please let Yangdu know. She will dang well let the kamis know about it, and heads will (and have) roll over putting out a product that is not 100% up to standards. That said, we all deserve the benefit of the doubt. Chris has been a long time customer, and I remember reading his posts back when I first dipped my toe in the HI waters. I want it to be well documented that HI is not, has never been, and never will be above reproach. That leads to stagnation and complacence, two things that will kill a company. If any HI product has a perceived issue, please feel free to contact Yangdu about it. It might be best form if you send her a polite email first before throwing a thread up here.
I guess I'm mostly with Berk on this. I dunno what the thread is really about, but I don't think it behooves us to jump on the OP feet first. Lets see if any photographic evidence is presented. I've seen some really rough looking chos before. However, I've never had one fail there. I've seen pics of failures there, but that might be 1/500 at a guess...maybe?
Trust but verify, perhaps?
I guess I'm mostly with Berk on this. I dunno what the thread is really about, but I don't think it behooves us to jump on the OP feet first. Lets see if any photographic evidence is presented. I've seen some really rough looking chos before. However, I've never had one fail there. I've seen pics of failures there, but that might be 1/500 at a guess...maybe?
Trust but verify, perhaps?
To Moonw.....i think the proportion of knives sold as users is quite high....while the numbers of those one or two time buyers who hang around a forum is very low...
So not much in way of getting regular posters to tell of use and abuse tales.....HOWEVER, i would naturally think if dud rate were high, those same one or two khukuri owner/users would be quite vocal here if some problem, as have been you
I would imagine production not much more overseen than stopping by to pick up knives for shipment. Perhaps the occasional file or whack test to keep the workers honest. For sure they are looked over for visual serious flaw prior to shipment and then when here. There is bound to be variation in hardness as much as there is in individual blade thickness....and heat...and ambient temp...and etc etc...and what tests fine before final finish may have lost the hard metal by end of finishing if a too shallow hardening for that particular blade. ...a good kami will hit the mark 99% of time according to Bill....but still leaves that 1% and somebody spotting it and pulling it to keep you or i from receiving it.
Personally i do not know what a particular kami considers "close enough for government work" when on his own....for the most part, the quality still seems quite impressive....
On my own two recent purchases, i could easily tell of a harder sweet spot when skating a fine jewelers file down the edge of the WWII.....on the edge of the Tarwar not quite so much, but i must be honest and side with desiring soft rather than hard for either a khukuri or sword as both take a tremendous beating.....and back to idea of cracks, the metal in back should have been nowhere near water for hardening a blade which otherwise is worked totally in an annealed soft state except for zone cold quench of edge done entirely by eye.
These knives being made under very primitive conditions by our standards, i know are world class compared to local competition, and i just take whatever they send me without a problem as i am not buying factory automated perfection but a first rate native artifact in strictest definition of artifact....some will be better than others....just as with my $500+ea knives, of which i have also required a return only twice for problem serious enough to interfere with knife doing job made to do....
Which should be the ONLY quality benchmark at all...does it WORK?....does it do what it was made to DO?......anything else is trivia for a working knife.....let collectors whine about all the rest.
So not much in way of getting regular posters to tell of use and abuse tales.....HOWEVER, i would naturally think if dud rate were high, those same one or two khukuri owner/users would be quite vocal here if some problem, as have been you
I would imagine production not much more overseen than stopping by to pick up knives for shipment. Perhaps the occasional file or whack test to keep the workers honest. For sure they are looked over for visual serious flaw prior to shipment and then when here. There is bound to be variation in hardness as much as there is in individual blade thickness....and heat...and ambient temp...and etc etc...and what tests fine before final finish may have lost the hard metal by end of finishing if a too shallow hardening for that particular blade. ...a good kami will hit the mark 99% of time according to Bill....but still leaves that 1% and somebody spotting it and pulling it to keep you or i from receiving it.
Personally i do not know what a particular kami considers "close enough for government work" when on his own....for the most part, the quality still seems quite impressive....
On my own two recent purchases, i could easily tell of a harder sweet spot when skating a fine jewelers file down the edge of the WWII.....on the edge of the Tarwar not quite so much, but i must be honest and side with desiring soft rather than hard for either a khukuri or sword as both take a tremendous beating.....and back to idea of cracks, the metal in back should have been nowhere near water for hardening a blade which otherwise is worked totally in an annealed soft state except for zone cold quench of edge done entirely by eye.
These knives being made under very primitive conditions by our standards, i know are world class compared to local competition, and i just take whatever they send me without a problem as i am not buying factory automated perfection but a first rate native artifact in strictest definition of artifact....some will be better than others....just as with my $500+ea knives, of which i have also required a return only twice for problem serious enough to interfere with knife doing job made to do....
Which should be the ONLY quality benchmark at all...does it WORK?....does it do what it was made to DO?......anything else is trivia for a working knife.....let collectors whine about all the rest.
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Well put. This should be the standard. This is not GlockTalk or other forums. I, like many of you, am on various other forums, and we all know the routine. There is a lot of pride in the selection and use of a weapon. Sometimes, it becomes personal. This forum is different. This forum is also a method of sales, revenue, and support for the Kamis. It is also a place where many who know something about Napal, Kamis, and Khukuris come to learn more. It is also a place where those who know nothing come to learn basic information, and those people come to have questions answered.
I have used blades for years. I've been sharpening steel for over 50 years. I've chopped, sliced, carried, and cut with an assortment of edged steel. While I'm not a new comer to heavy knives, I am new to khukuris. In the last two months, I have been fortunate enough to both find this site, and acquire a modest collection of high quality usable khukuris. If this site is seen as a fanboy site, it will suffer. HI is capable of standing on its on two strong legs. My biggest fear with some of the shoot-from-the-hip responses is that many of the newer lurkers will not ask the important questions, which would have lead them to learn more about a fascinating culture, and a wonderful blade. That would be bad for all involved through out the entire chain.
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Himmmm. I can see very tiny black lines extending down into the blade from the base of the cho and yes all my khuks are/were HI's. Maybe it is not a crack I'm seeing but it looks like one. They are extremely fine and not long at all. Maybe 1 32" of in inch long. I'll try to get a pick of what I'm talking about.