What I meant was more of what we are. Even if god did create the universe, how did he get created. Why is matter here, is it even real?(cue the matrix...)
Creationish Vs Evolutionism? BE POLITE!
- Thread starter Chris Pierce
- Start date
- Status
What I meant was more of what we are. Even if god did create the universe, how did he get created. Why is matter here, is it even real?(cue the matrix...)
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2009
- Messages
- 2,397
Sure, but we are talking about something that has challenged humankind since the dawn of man and not something silly like unicorns and the tooth fairy.
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2013
- Messages
- 3,809
Does the seriousness with which people take it, change the amount of evidence for it?
Anyway - this is a different discussion.
Anyway - this is a different discussion.
These are not new arguments.
First. The burden of proof lies with those claiming deities exist. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
As you fully know proving a negative is not possible. We can not disprove the tooth fairy, unicorns, Zeus, Thor, Astghik, Horus or any of the myriad of deities on this list. However to disprove biblical creationism we don't have to.
Assuming that
God is infallible
The Bible is the true word of God
It follows that to prove the bible inaccurate is to disprove the Christian god.
First. The burden of proof lies with those claiming deities exist. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
As you fully know proving a negative is not possible. We can not disprove the tooth fairy, unicorns, Zeus, Thor, Astghik, Horus or any of the myriad of deities on this list. However to disprove biblical creationism we don't have to.
Assuming that
God is infallible
The Bible is the true word of God
It follows that to prove the bible inaccurate is to disprove the Christian god.
There are some of us here that find Thor, Zeus, Allah, Parvardigar, Yahweh, and Santa to be just as silly as unicorns and the tooth fairy. mankind is often has a superstitious element in its various geographical cultures.
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2009
- Messages
- 2,397
Conclusion from link: The Bible is inaccurate therefore God is fallible therefore the definition of God is incorrect therefore God does not exist.
Well there you go, someone figured it out with certainty. What more could you need?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity#Reducibility_of_.22irreducible.22_systems
^ is interesting
*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design
^ is more interesting
^ is interesting
*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design
^ is more interesting
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2009
- Messages
- 2,696
we clearly evolved from ostriches what with peoples' defensive reaction consisting of burying their head in the sand.
my belief structure can be summed up by the brilliant Douglas Adams.
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
"And that's all I have to say about that."
-Forrest Gump
my belief structure can be summed up by the brilliant Douglas Adams.
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
"And that's all I have to say about that."
-Forrest Gump
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2005
- Messages
- 4,527
Is there such thing as an Atheist? You might choose to believe there is no God but unless you possess the power to search every square inch of existence then there certainly is no proof.
All children are born atheist and have to be indoctrinated into theism. I did not believe in the probability of a god as long as I can remember, around four or five. I was repeatedly told I wasn't an atheist growing up, but it did not matter. Questions and logic such as this aren't really a part of it, and theists often have a hard time believing someone such as myself can be okay with not 100% certainty. Being sceptical is a part of a scientific mind, and all scientific minds have to accept the possibility that any law can become undone in the face of irrefutable evidence, so absolute certainty isn't an issue. If an apparent god appeared in front of me, it would open up the possibility more in my mind, however I would still remain questioning.
Atheism is a religion like:
Off is a TV channel. &
Bald is a hair color
shunsui
Gold Member
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2008
- Messages
- 5,665
Actually atheists are way beyond religion.
"Let us strangle the last king with the entrails of the last priest." (1784)
Denis Diderot (b.1713), French philosopher, critic, and encyclopedist
I go for good old fashioned agnosticism. I just happily go about with an utter lack of belief:
"Do you believe in God?" No.
"Do you believe there is no God?" No.
Proudly stand tall and shout "I don't know!!!" to the heavens.
[video=youtube;LTvC6ReLw4g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTvC6ReLw4g[/video]
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2009
- Messages
- 2,696
To actually add my two cents, atheist and evolution.
I am a hardcore skeptic, always have been. Grew up a pastor's kid and a missionary. I've read the Bible cover to cover. Didn't really "lose my faith" until after high school, but I don't think I ever quite believed like many of my peers.
I always had many questions and doubts which could not be quenched by the typical lines said by pastors or biblical teachers. I saw inconsistency after inconsistency, both in the scriptures themselves, and in the teaching/actions of followers. But I always wanted to believe, no matter how much of it was empirically false.
On the other hand: evolution. I was also highly skeptical of this, add to that the fact that I did NOT want to believe in evolution. However, I'm a book worm, naturally studious, and love to learn. Go figure that the more and more I read, studied, and learned, the one thing I didn't have a desire to be true was seeming to be so.
I'm not against the idea of some sort of intelligent design guiding all that we know. though I think it's most likely a hoop dream, and science can continue to progress without this handicap in our mindset. And I certainly don't believe the world was created in a week by some humanistic deity with a penchant for inbreeding, and finding the most creative ways possible to destroy his own creations.
Any ways, I remained close with certain church groups for years after being pretty firmly atheist, helping out with their groups and out reach, since I saw the good that some organized religion can achieve. however, the final nail in the coffin (or cross??) for me was when prop 8 was going to be voted on in Cali, and I saw swarms of Christians going against Christ's teachings and becoming hateful, judgmental, and vindictive against a certain group of people just looking to be treated equally. All with no biblical merit to even back these actions up.
I'm still heavily skeptical on my current understanding of science and evolution, I love to try and prove myself wrong. And for the intelligent design crew in here who were trying to paint scientists as trying to "shut the book" on evolution..... REALLY? Do you truly believe that? I almost laughed until I realized how depressing of a mindset that must be, that you could paint the explorers of our generation with such a broad, inaccurate brush, in the face of all visible evidence.
I am a hardcore skeptic, always have been. Grew up a pastor's kid and a missionary. I've read the Bible cover to cover. Didn't really "lose my faith" until after high school, but I don't think I ever quite believed like many of my peers.
I always had many questions and doubts which could not be quenched by the typical lines said by pastors or biblical teachers. I saw inconsistency after inconsistency, both in the scriptures themselves, and in the teaching/actions of followers. But I always wanted to believe, no matter how much of it was empirically false.
On the other hand: evolution. I was also highly skeptical of this, add to that the fact that I did NOT want to believe in evolution. However, I'm a book worm, naturally studious, and love to learn. Go figure that the more and more I read, studied, and learned, the one thing I didn't have a desire to be true was seeming to be so.
I'm not against the idea of some sort of intelligent design guiding all that we know. though I think it's most likely a hoop dream, and science can continue to progress without this handicap in our mindset. And I certainly don't believe the world was created in a week by some humanistic deity with a penchant for inbreeding, and finding the most creative ways possible to destroy his own creations.
Any ways, I remained close with certain church groups for years after being pretty firmly atheist, helping out with their groups and out reach, since I saw the good that some organized religion can achieve. however, the final nail in the coffin (or cross??) for me was when prop 8 was going to be voted on in Cali, and I saw swarms of Christians going against Christ's teachings and becoming hateful, judgmental, and vindictive against a certain group of people just looking to be treated equally. All with no biblical merit to even back these actions up.
I'm still heavily skeptical on my current understanding of science and evolution, I love to try and prove myself wrong. And for the intelligent design crew in here who were trying to paint scientists as trying to "shut the book" on evolution..... REALLY? Do you truly believe that? I almost laughed until I realized how depressing of a mindset that must be, that you could paint the explorers of our generation with such a broad, inaccurate brush, in the face of all visible evidence.
God created the earth, universe, animals, people, air water, land and everything in 6(SIX) 24 hour days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No doubt about it!!! Read the BIBLE!!! It is God's word. Every word in the Bible was inspired by God. Let the Bible interperate the Bible. Keep mans thoughts and opinions out of it. When you get to heaven, Everything will be revealed to you. Trust in God!!! He won't let you down like man does all the time. God is LOVE. He is the great I AM. The creator of everything period. It should be everyones desire to trust and believe in God with all their heart, mind and soul. One day in heaven you will be able to commune with God himself. What could be more wonderful? Hell is the absence of God. What could be worse? Evolution has no place in a christians life. It is man made. The Earth and universe is approx. 6000 yrs old. Not millions or billions of yrs. old!!! Read and believe every word written in Genesis for it is the foundation of the Bible!!! Don't pick and choose parts of the Bible to believe in. The whole Bible is God's inerrant word. Believe and be saved. Remember one thing. God sent his son to die on the cross for you and everyone. His only son!!! That is how much He Loves you. You are the most precious thing to Him. BELIEVE!!!!!!!!! GOD IS LOVE!
God created the earth, universe, animals, people, air water, land and everything in 6(SIX) 24 hour days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No doubt about it!!! Read the BIBLE!!! It is God's word. Every word in the Bible was inspired by God. Let the Bible interperate the Bible. Keep mans thoughts and opinions out of it. When you get to heaven, Everything will be revealed to you. Trust in God!!! He won't let you down like man does all the time. God is LOVE. He is the great I AM. The creator of everything period. It should be everyones desire to trust and believe in God with all their heart, mind and soul. One day in heaven you will be able to commune with God himself. What could be more wonderful? Hell is the absence of God. What could be worse? Evolution has no place in a christians life. It is man made. The Earth and universe is approx. 6000 yrs old. Not millions or billions of yrs. old!!! Read and believe every word written in Genesis for it is the foundation of the Bible!!! Don't pick and choose parts of the Bible to believe in. The whole Bible is God's inerrant word. Believe and be saved. Remember one thing. God sent his son to die on the cross for you and everyone. His only son!!! That is how much He Loves you. You are the most precious thing to Him. BELIEVE!!!!!!!!! GOD IS LOVE!
I think I am being trolled here, I hope I am being trolled here.
[youtube]i2wIOGsVg_o[/youtube]
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2003
- Messages
- 2,314
Well, reading my user name will probably tell you where I fall on this spectrum.
I accept evolution through natural causes as the most likely explanation for the observed diversity of life as it's the explanation with the most weight behind it. I've seen nothing that would lead me to believe that any of the religious explanations have any truth power, and many of them are in conflict with observed facts.
I accept evolution through natural causes as the most likely explanation for the observed diversity of life as it's the explanation with the most weight behind it. I've seen nothing that would lead me to believe that any of the religious explanations have any truth power, and many of them are in conflict with observed facts.
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2008
- Messages
- 3,010
Ok, time to tell the truth. The ONLY answer is : Inexplicable. I beg anyone to prove, and I mean PROVE, otherwise. We all 'believe' what we think is true, but there are no concrete facts to support either side. Creation has the bible, a book without a way to prove its writings are accurate, which is why it takes faith to believe it to be true. On the Evolution side, we have the THEORY of Evolution, meaning an 'educated' guess, scientifically speaking. So there's the eternal dilemma. Believe in one or the other. But Millions of scientists and theologans(sp?) stil cannot solve what BF members are going on and on and on and on to try and convince everyone that they are the one with the answer.
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2013
- Messages
- 3,809
Theory in science does not mean "educated guess." A scientific theory is based on evidence, and repeated testing.
And further, even if both theism and science are wrong, the answer may not be inexplicable. It is a very large gulf between "we don't know" and "we can't know."
And further, even if both theism and science are wrong, the answer may not be inexplicable. It is a very large gulf between "we don't know" and "we can't know."
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2006
- Messages
- 4,837
I don't think that anyone can argue that "organized" religion is really truly a good thing. But the problem isn't God. The problem is man. It's the same in any institution, people are greedy, judgmental, vindictive etc. When people have power they abuse it. What the world (and Christianity) needs is folks who won't go with the social norm and won't just take some ones word for it. We need more free thinkers who look at the big picture and draw conclusions. We can't be afraid to say "I don't know"
That's great Incline. You seem very devout. Can you give us some examples of where you get your ideas? Maybe some Biblical quotes?
I can't say that I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I can assure you that I am a devout and God loving Christian.
Do you remember where Jesus says that all we need is faith and confession to be saved?
Romans 10:9 "That if with your mouth you confess Jesus as Lord and in your heart believe that God brought Him back to life, you shall be saved."
I would think that this implies that even if we interpret the Bible differently that others we can still be good Christians.
God bless.
God created the earth, universe, animals, people, air water, land and everything in 6(SIX) 24 hour days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No doubt about it!!! Read the BIBLE!!! It is God's word. Every word in the Bible was inspired by God. Let the Bible interperate the Bible. Keep mans thoughts and opinions out of it. When you get to heaven, Everything will be revealed to you. Trust in God!!! He won't let you down like man does all the time. God is LOVE. He is the great I AM. The creator of everything period. It should be everyones desire to trust and believe in God with all their heart, mind and soul. One day in heaven you will be able to commune with God himself. What could be more wonderful? Hell is the absence of God. What could be worse? Evolution has no place in a christians life. It is man made. The Earth and universe is approx. 6000 yrs old. Not millions or billions of yrs. old!!! Read and believe every word written in Genesis for it is the foundation of the Bible!!! Don't pick and choose parts of the Bible to believe in. The whole Bible is God's inerrant word. Believe and be saved. Remember one thing. God sent his son to die on the cross for you and everyone. His only son!!! That is how much He Loves you. You are the most precious thing to Him. BELIEVE!!!!!!!!! GOD IS LOVE!
That's great Incline. You seem very devout. Can you give us some examples of where you get your ideas? Maybe some Biblical quotes?
I can't say that I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I can assure you that I am a devout and God loving Christian.
Do you remember where Jesus says that all we need is faith and confession to be saved?
Romans 10:9 "That if with your mouth you confess Jesus as Lord and in your heart believe that God brought Him back to life, you shall be saved."
I would think that this implies that even if we interpret the Bible differently that others we can still be good Christians.
God bless.
- Status