Critique Requested for 11 Pound Water Cooled VFD Motor in Testing on 2 x 72 Grinder

BelnapCustomKnives

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Yeah part of my problem was the pull setup I was using to bump the speed to the higher umbers. I have a small 1hp 3ph motor that I’m putting on my mill that says 1775rpm but then says max 6000rpm. It’s designed to be used on a vfd. If I could snag one of these in a larger HP rating I would be more then happy. The problem with VFD and motors is torque and hp. If you run at name plate rpm you get the nameplate hp. But as soon as you use the vfd to drop the rpm you loose HP but it try’s to keep torque. This is becaus motors have a voltage to HZ ratio. If you go over this ratio then the stator becomes saturated and does not work. So as you drop the speed which is HZ the vfd must drop voltage to keep the V/HZ ratio corect. If you go the other way and speed a motor up the vfd can’t put out more voltage then it’s given so it keeps the voltage at the 240v and just increases the HZ. What this does is increases RPM but keeps HP at the name plate rating. But this comes with a drawback and that is a drop in torque. Here is a chart that might make a little more sence.
Photo%20Apr%2008%2C%2010%2045%2033%20AM.jpg
 

BelnapCustomKnives

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Than
Yeah part of my problem was the pull setup I was using to bump the speed to the higher umbers. I have a small 1hp 3ph motor that I’m putting on my mill that says 1775rpm but then says max 6000rpm. It’s designed to be used on a vfd. If I could snag one of these in a larger HP rating I would be more then happy. The problem with VFD and motors is torque and hp. If you run at name plate rpm you get the nameplate hp. But as soon as you use the vfd to drop the rpm you loose HP but it try’s to keep torque. This is becaus motors have a voltage to HZ ratio. If you go over this ratio then the stator becomes saturated and does not work. So as you drop the speed which is HZ the vfd must drop voltage to keep the V/HZ ratio corect. If you go the other way and speed a motor up the vfd can’t put out more voltage then it’s given so it keeps the voltage at the 240v and just increases the HZ. What this does is increases RPM but keeps HP at the name plate rating. But this comes with a drawback and that is a drop in torque. Here is a chart that might make a little more sence.
Photo%20Apr%2008%2C%2010%2045%2033%20AM.jpg
Thanks. This post made the conversation much more interesting and informative for me.
 

Joshua Fisher

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Belnap, using a calculator online for hp to torque conversions a 24000 rpm 3hp motor would put out .7 torque in foot pounds, to compare a leeson 3hp motor at 3600rpm would give 4.4 torque and 1750 would give 9. Some interesting numbers and that goes along with my understanding of woodworking equipment, take a look at most router motors like what you are using that are rated for high speed and hp but what they aren’t telling you is you are getting substantially lower torque than a standard motor, but those motors normally are spinning small objects at high speeds where you don’t need a lot of torque, and I’m not saying your grinder doesn’t work because it clearly does from the video you posted but I can hear the motors speed changing in the video so it wouldn’t surprise me to see a big drop in speed when pressure is applied. Not trying to start a argument just more or less thinking out loud
 

BelnapCustomKnives

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Yeah part of my problem was the pull setup I was using to bump the speed to the higher umbers. I have a small 1hp 3ph motor that I’m putting on my mill that says 1775rpm but then says max 6000rpm. It’s designed to be used on a vfd. If I could snag one of these in a larger HP rating I would be more then happy. The problem with VFD and motors is torque and hp. If you run at name plate rpm you get the nameplate hp. But as soon as you use the vfd to drop the rpm you loose HP but it try’s to keep torque. This is becaus motors have a voltage to HZ ratio. If you go over this ratio then the stator becomes saturated and does not work. So as you drop the speed which is HZ the vfd must drop voltage to keep the V/HZ ratio corect. If you go the other way and speed a motor up the vfd can’t put out more voltage then it’s given so it keeps the voltage at the 240v and just increases the HZ. What this does is increases RPM but keeps HP at the name plate rating. But this comes with a drawback and that is a drop in torque. Here is a chart that might make a little more sence.
Photo%20Apr%2008%2C%2010%2045%2033%20AM.jpg
After reading some more based on your explanation it seems that the little motor is operating in its normal power ratios which would be straight torque line and climbing HP line until it reaches 24,000 rpm/400hz and the two lines meet and deliver max rated power, speed, and torque at exactly where you need it for heavy removals. Vs. what the conventional sander drive is doing which it maxing out at 60hz then trading torque for rpm so at top rpm it is operating at a significantly reduced power/torque when you actually need it most and when you slow down it develops max power when you really do not need it.
 

BelnapCustomKnives

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Have you looked at automationdirect? I only ask because you are comparing the cheapest spindle motor direct from a supplier to a mid range quality motor from a "middle-man" company.
Could not find the Leeson on that sight. I was meaning to compare to a popularly used motor by other sander manufactures such as the one I referenced. There appear to be inexpensive motors on that sight but I have not seen anyone mention they use those particular ones on their machines.
 
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Lots of folks are using the Iron Horse 3 ph motors on grinders and other things. They work just fine and are a good bit less expensive than the normal 3 ph motor.
 

Rhinoknives1

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Hello Gents, my 2Cents is that I always have a 90 Durometer rubber wheel on my Grinders for the Drive, and of course any contact wheel. After my Coote machine which is 8” Belt driven grinder I bought a Hardcore 2 x 72” and even bought an extra Rubber wheel for my Tag 101... I’ve found they reduce slippage, improve tracking and help keep sound & vibration down!! Which helps reduce fatigue which grinding out a stack of blades..............................It’s worth it! I won’t use a plain Aluminum drive or any other than a Idler wheel and even those track better & quieter with a rubber contact coating...
 

BelnapCustomKnives

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Messages
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Hello Gents, my 2Cents is that I always have a 90 Durometer rubber wheel on my Grinders for the Drive, and of course any contact wheel. After my Coote machine which is 8” Belt driven grinder I bought a Hardcore 2 x 72” and even bought an extra Rubber wheel for my Tag 101... I’ve found they reduce slippage, improve tracking and help keep sound & vibration down!! Which helps reduce fatigue which grinding out a stack of blades..............................It’s worth it! I won’t use a plain Aluminum drive or any other than a Idler wheel and even those track better & quieter with a rubber contact coating...
thanks
 

BelnapCustomKnives

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Lots of folks are using the Iron Horse 3 ph motors on grinders and other things. They work just fine and are a good bit less expensive than the normal 3 ph motor.
Those are really affordably priced motors
 
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Hello Gents, my 2Cents is that I always have a 90 Durometer rubber wheel on my Grinders for the Drive, and of course any contact wheel. After my Coote machine which is 8” Belt driven grinder I bought a Hardcore 2 x 72” and even bought an extra Rubber wheel for my Tag 101... I’ve found they reduce slippage, improve tracking and help keep sound & vibration down!! Which helps reduce fatigue which grinding out a stack of blades..............................It’s worth it! I won’t use a plain Aluminum drive or any other than a Idler wheel and even those track better & quieter with a rubber contact coating...

Laurence you like 90duro to grind on as well? Have you tried the 70duro? Always thought a softer wheel would be more pleasing to grind on and have better traction as a drive ala grippier
 

Rhinoknives1

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Laurence you like 90duro to grind on as well? Have you tried the 70duro? Always thought a softer wheel would be more pleasing to grind on and have better traction as a drive ala grippier
Thanks for spotting that! Typo, mine are 70 durometer just like my contact wheels!...
 

BelnapCustomKnives

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Belnap, using a calculator online for hp to torque conversions a 24000 rpm 3hp motor would put out .7 torque in foot pounds, to compare a leeson 3hp motor at 3600rpm would give 4.4 torque and 1750 would give 9. Some interesting numbers and that goes along with my understanding of woodworking equipment, take a look at most router motors like what you are using that are rated for high speed and hp but what they aren’t telling you is you are getting substantially lower torque than a standard motor, but those motors normally are spinning small objects at high speeds where you don’t need a lot of torque, and I’m not saying your grinder doesn’t work because it clearly does from the video you posted but I can hear the motors speed changing in the video so it wouldn’t surprise me to see a big drop in speed when pressure is applied. Not trying to start a argument just more or less thinking out loud
Hi, I messed with a similar calculator online and got similar torque number for the 24,000 motor. Which probably accurate because it is using a drive wheel diameter of 1" to achieve 7000 sfpm. The rpm numbers mentioned for the other motors would require a bigger drive wheel to achieve 7000 sfpm. The drive wheel diameter would need to be considered to get actual torque delivered to the belt because of the increased arm of the larger drive wheel. Might still be higher than the little motor. I am not saying the little motor is producing more torque because it is not a torque motor. The small amount of torque it does produce has proven in real world testing so far to be more than enough to perform all grinding functions I have tried so far very well.
At 1750 with double speed jumper the motor would be running 3500 rpm and require a 7-8" drive wheel to achieve 7000 sfpm. Once this motor goes over 1750 per the chart JTknives shared the motor begins to loose torque with rpm increase. Then after that there is torque lose due to large diameter drive wheel. I have not worked it all out and it still may be a higher number than the spindle motor at that belt speed. Same would go for the 3500 motor if it was jumped for double speed and a 4 inch drive wheel to reach 7000 rpm. I have a KBAC29 vfd and might go ahead and buy an Iron Horse 3hp and do some side by side comparison.
 

Joshua Fisher

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Belnap it would definitely be neat to see a comparison of the two, we could crunch numbers all day long and would probably be suprised at how close a lot of it would come out with everything figured in, I think as long as you can get from point a to b and nothing blows up in the process then that’s all that matters. Definitely a interesting thread to follow.
 
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You forget in your calculation this ......................:)

A flywheel is a mechanical device specifically designed to efficiently store rotational energy . Flywheels resist changes in rotational speed by their moment of inertia . The amount of energy stored in a flywheel is proportional to the square of its rotational speed .

When I turn power off , this little 2x42 monster continue to spin half minute ...... :)
2hp 380V 3 phase motor and 2820 RPM , drive wheel / flywheel / is 22cm.dia , 6400 SFPM . Be my guest and try to stop this ......................:D

Hcd5Qdd.jpg
 
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BelnapCustomKnives

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You forget in your calculation this ......................:)



When I turn power off , this little 2x42 monster continue to spin half minute ......
2hp 380V 3 phase motor and 2820 RPM , drive wheel is 22cm.dia , 6400 SFPM . Be my guest and try to stop this ......................:D

Hcd5Qdd.jpg
380 Volts... Sweet! I want to see it running.
 
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BelnapCustomKnives

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Belnap, I commented before watching this video - I watched the first one you put made with this grinder. While I don't see the reason for the CNC spindle motor, please do allow me to compliment you on how smooth and straight the grinder tracks. You surely did a good job of getting it all lined up. Have you tried it in reverse yet?

Good job on building.
Thanks for the idea. I have reversed it on accident when starting but not deliberately for an period. I will do that and see. This is my first VFD and I am still in a one direction frame of mind because I am not used to having the option of reverse.
 
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After reading some more based on your explanation it seems that the little motor is operating in its normal power ratios which would be straight torque line and climbing HP line until it reaches 24,000 rpm/400hz and the two lines meet and deliver max rated power, speed, and torque at exactly where you need it for heavy removals. Vs. what the conventional sander drive is doing which it maxing out at 60hz then trading torque for rpm so at top rpm it is operating at a significantly reduced power/torque when you actually need it most and when you slow down it develops max power when you really do not need it.

OK , I will join the club :)You win ! Definitely I will use this one for my CNC belt grinder .And I had so nice cohabitation till now with my neighbors :D

x372PQi.jpg
 
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BelnapCustomKnives

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OK , I will join the club :)You win ! Definitely I will use this one for my CNC belt grinder .And I had so nice cohabitation till now with my neighbors :D

x372PQi.jpg
Can't wait to see your CNC grinder. I have thought about doing that but only thoughts no action. I don't have any CNC skills yet. Is this an air cooled motor?
 
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