CSC 420 or Queen D2. Which to choose?

jonshoup

jonshoup

Joined
Oct 8, 2004
Messages
226
I've been killing myself for months trying to decide on the best knife to purchase. I'm new to slip-joints, only owning 4. My Buck's my favorite so far, the Schrade is junk, the Case Tru-Sharp is over-rated and Grand-dad's Western can't survive too many more sharpenings. The pattern (3-3 1/4" stockman) is decided but I want The best carbon steel blades on the best and prettiest frame that $100 will buy me. I like to whittle so steel must be good and handle must be solid.

Please chime in with experiences, insight and wisdom as my time for deliberation is almost gone. Bday draws near and the wife wants my choice so the kids can give daddy his first high quality slip-joint. I just want the best knife I can afford.
 
I know nothing about CSC's 420. The 2 knives in D2 I have from Queen are great once they are sharpened up.
 
The 420 is probably 420 HC which is good stuff when properly tempered. The Queen D2 however is much better IMHO.
 
Case Tru-Sharp is 420 HC, same as Canal Street 420 HC so if you don't like Case stainless you probably won't like Canal St stainless. I've never heard anything that would suggest that Canal Street's 420 HC performs better than anyone elses. From an edge holding standpoint, Queen's D2 is much better.

However, my understanding is that Canal Street offers some knives in D2 steel, but I don't know if the small stockman is one of them.

Another option is the Case 3 5/8 stockman which does come with their excellent Chrome Vanadium high carbon steel. Case CV is my favorite carbon steel for slipjoints. The 2006 catalog has the 3 5/8" (medium) stockman in yellow delrin, red bone, and amber bone. I think you'd only wind up paying about $35 for bone handles and about $30 for the delrin.

If you really want to go all out and spend $100 on a nice small stockman with Carbon Blades, I'd recommend a Moore Maker in bone or stag. I think it will still only run you about $70, but they're some of the nicest knives out there. Made by Queen, incidentally.

Happy Hunting! Please let us know what you decide!!

Regards,

Jim
 
Jon,I gotta say.I have a Mooremaker.they are dam good 1095 carbon.But,I do not like when I use the carbon,on,let's say ,peeling an apple.The steel reacts,causing it to patina,but I noticed,that it actually makes the apple have a peculiar taste.I recxently bought some Queen slips,in D-2,a good friend sharpened them up,they are good,real good.Now if you asked,out of all my production slips,if I could only keep one,it would be one of the Queen D-2's.I also can tell you,the carbon steel knives,are gonna be easier to re-sharpen.And the Queen Cocobolo is sweet!,with the stag no dog either.
 
DSCN1745.jpg
 
Now I realize,your thread asks about Queen and Case.But here's a thought,you can find these Winchester knives,made by Queen,for BlueGrass Cutlery,on Ebay,and The Cutting Edge usually has some.They are carbon,but these are really well made! Antique Utica Jig Bone!
DSCN1494-1.jpg
 
My thoughts:

I have a Queen D2/Cocobolo knife that, while nice, was a bit of a disappointment when new because it came dull as a stump (which is "normal" for Queen) and because D2 is so hard, took hours to reprofile and sharpen. I'm not the only one who's had issues with sharpening D2: a search of this forum will turn up lots of topics on the subject.

I feel the basic Canal Street is a much nicer knife than the basic Queen. More attention to detail, better workmanship, better fit & finish. I'm personally less concerned about exotic steels than many here. To each their own. A D2 CSC showed up on eBay last week, so they're out there (or coming).

You might check out S&M (Schatt & Morgan) knives. Being Queen's "high end" knife they tend to be nicer than the basic models, and some are available with high-zoot steels, too. They still suffer from Queen's inability to sharpen a knife before shipping it, though.

While I don't own any of the Moore Makers already mentioned, they do look awful nice and would be worth a look-see, too.

Good luck,

-- Sam
 
I'm not against W.R. Case but does their CV really match up against 1095 or D-2 when it comes to cutting ability and edge retention?
 
VCM3,
Great pics. Did you handpick those, or order them online? It's been a couple of years, but all of the Queen D2 slipjoints I've handled had horrible fit and finish, along with blade play. Gaps, cracks, uneven pin height, scales that weren't square on the ends...they were garbage. I was planning to buy a small stockman up until then. The scales on the pics you posted are much better than any I saw the two times I checked out a bunch of them, so I'm hoping they've improved their quality so I can buy one, and would appreciate any comments. Thanks.
 
CV takes a really good edge, holds it similar to 1095, though some may say 1095 beats it by a tiny bit longer, and sharpens up easily. D-2 should hold it's edge a lot longer, but translates to much longer time spent sharpening it.

Of the Queens I've gotten new or NIB, four out of the five were actually quite sharp. Four are D-2 and one is stainless. The one that isn't sharp is D-2 and is the only one I'm also a bit dissapointed in finish quality of. I should have sent it back, but I hate doing that and it was intended for unprotected pocket carry anyway. I may still send it though.

I've some mixed emotions on 420HC. I understand that later Case SS is 420HC and I've had pretty good luck with it and the older stainless. I've had a few knives that are supposed to be 420HC, to include a S&M that have been somewhat vexing to me. So I'm still trying to figure out if 420HC is a deal breaker for me. Perhaps the heat treatment is the key and it takes a fine bit of artistry in the treatment to make 420HC performs its best. I've also heard that the later Schrade+ steel was 420HC. Dunno if that's true, but in either case I've had some pretty sharp blades in Schrade+ that have held and resharpened well.

I know with 440A and 440C my experience has been that pretty much everyone has proper heat treatment down on that one. The only knife I've had in those that dulls fast is a S&W Chinese made trapper. The 440C Steel Warriors seem to do fine. Go figure.

A good Case in CV is a fine knife and a good value. My personal experience has been that the 2005/06 knives seem to have better walk and talk, and even a weeee bit better fitting than the late 90s, early 2000s. That's just just my limited experience.

Now that I've emptied my change pocket getting my 2 cents worth with inflation adjustment, I'll shut up. ;) for now.
 
OwenM said:
VCM3,
Great pics. Did you handpick those, or order them online? It's been a couple of years, but all of the Queen D2 slipjoints I've handled had horrible fit and finish, along with blade play. Gaps, cracks, uneven pin height, scales that weren't square on the ends...they were garbage. I was planning to buy a small stockman up until then. The scales on the pics you posted are much better than any I saw the two times I checked out a bunch of them, so I'm hoping they've improved their quality so I can buy one, and would appreciate any comments. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Those Queen knives were hand picked for me by BF Member LarryM,and the same with the Winchester.The Copperheads have a beautifully firm snap.
It was not my intension to show 'em off,but to show a digital up close,as apposed to some on-line knife site's pictures.The pictures,I posted,are also courtesy of LarryM.Ifeel the stag bone,on those Queen's,are done real well,and I first purchased one on Ebay.As was stated in the previously posted threads,Larry said the D-2 blades on the ones he sharpened on an Edgepro,were a bit of a PIA.But it seems ,now that they were sharpened up ,in this manner,that they will hold an edge pretty good.One of my more used EDC slips,is a Mooremaker whittler,wich re-sharpens easy enough for me (1095).
 
I have a Queen "Large Stockman" in D-2. It replaced my Buck large stockman. I wouldn't trade the D-2 Queen for any slip joint made. I thought the Buck was a "fairly decent" pocket knife before getting the Queen. Now I look at the Buck like it was junk!:D
 
If the knife is going to see a lot of use, get the Queen D-2. In my experience it holds an edge much longer than either 1095 or Case CV, both of which I like a lot, and its light years better than 420.

I had no trouble sharpenning mine, but then I used an extra course diamond hone. The trick was to get the edge thin, and then put a mirco-bevel on it to finish. Touch ups are easy because you only need to take off a minute bit of steel to resharpen the micro-bevel.

Even though I've had mixed luck with Queens insofar as I've had to send several back, in the end it was worth it because when they get it right, they really get it right.
 
jonshoup said:
I'm not against W.R. Case but does their CV really match up against 1095 or D-2 when it comes to cutting ability and edge retention?
Click to expand...


In my experience, my Case CV blades hold their edge longer than my knives in 1095. I love 1095, but I like Case CV even better.
 
For edge retention, I would rate them as 1095 < CV < D2. Of course, you can always get one with a bad heat treat that will not fit that. By the way, I'm not knocking 1095, I really like that steel, I just think the other 2 hold an edge longer.

ParaGlock, I'm sorry to hear that it took that long. All of my Queens have arrived with a bad sharpening job, and I usually re-profile them a bunch thinner and then sharpen them up with my Edgepro. I did a Queen Cattle Stockman last night, and it took about 10 minutes per blade, so 30 - 40 min total.
 
When I got my Queen "Large Stockman," all three blades were shaving sharp, but THICK, with 20+ degree angle.

I used the grey rods on the Sharpmaker, and reprofiled to 15 degrees, straight bevel. All three blades are now "push-cutting" sharp. it took about an hour and a half to do all three blades, but it was well worth it. The blades now have a semi-rough "toothy" edge, for great slicing ability, but will also Push cut newsprint one inch out.

IMHO, having a knife like that is worth a little extra work!;)
 
Those are some great looking knives, VCM3! :thumbup: I love the copperheads. :)

Case's CV steel is supposedly 0170-6, which is also called 50100B. (There's some more info in this thread.) It's basically 1095 with a tiny bit of chromium (0.45%) and vanadium (0.20%) added.

I'm not sure I have enough experience to prefer one over the other, but CV seems a little stronger to me than 1095; I get a "crisper" edge when sharpening it. CV is probably a tad more wear resistant too

Last week I got my first Case with stainless steel blades. (It's a medium stockman that was made earlier this year.) There are probably better steels out there, but Case's stainless doesn't seem too bad to me. The blades were easy to sharpen and got very sharp. I don't know how well they'll hold up over time though.

D2 is kind of a weird steel: I'm not sure I like it yet. The length of time it takes to sharpen it can be a problem. In my experience, it also tends to easily form a small burr that can be difficult to remove and it never quite gets "scary sharp".

I'm sure that D2 will be much more wear resistant than 420HC, 1095 or 0170-6. Cliff Stamp did some tests on 50100B here. Compared to a hard, custom D2 blade, the 50100B in a Cold Steel knife didn't hold an edge very well at all.
 
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