CSC 420 or Queen D2. Which to choose?

AG Russell thinks CSC's stainless is only hardened to 52-54rc:
http://www.agrussell.com/knives/by_..._street_cutlery_co_four_blade_4_congress.html

That basically makes it a decoration, not a real knife.

I have two Queen muskrats and one copperhead. Their D2 is not as hard as it could be, but it's more of a performer than most slipjoints which have crummy steel. But on the copperheads, the secondary non-stamped blade on each is softer than the main blade. I e-mailed them to ask if that was normal, no reply.

I would definitely take the Queen over the CSC butter knife, although the Queen isn't perfect either.
 
you put way too much into rc ratings-
canal street knives have a great fit and finish-and they cut just as good as any other knife-
 
Nobody outside of the factory really knows what is in case CV or trusharp stainless or cold steel carbonV. They keep it secret on purpose so they can change the steel as they see fit. You may know what the steel was a year ago, but that's no reason you'll be right today. If you care about steels, at least with Queen and CSC you know the steel type you are buying. In reality, the CSC steel could very well be Queen's since they share a lot of parts, one joint production knife and a booth at one of the recent shows. CSC could very well be a subsidiary of Queen.
 
cerulean said:
D2 is kind of a weird steel: I'm not sure I like it yet. The length of time it takes to sharpen it can be a problem. In my experience, it also tends to easily form a small burr that can be difficult to remove and it never quite gets "scary sharp".
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That's been my experience, too. It's very hard and brittle, gets a fairly good "toothy" edge, but when you try to polish it out it actually starts to feel less sharp.

-- Sam
 
cerulean said:
D2 is kind of a weird steel: I'm not sure I like it yet. The length of time it takes to sharpen it can be a problem. In my experience, it also tends to easily form a small burr that can be difficult to remove and it never quite gets "scary sharp".
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May a "Noobie" respectfully disagree?:jerkit:

I don't get a burr at all since I use a Sharpmaker and alternate strokes. I completely agree that sharpeniung D-2 is a lot of work, but all three of my D-2 knives are truly "scary sharp." They will push-cut newsprint at one inch.

Getting them that way wasn't fast or easy, but IMHO, well worth the effort. :)
 
ParaGlock said:
That's been my experience, too. It's very hard and brittle, gets a fairly good "toothy" edge, but when you try to polish it out it actually starts to feel less sharp.

-- Sam
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Hmm... yeah.

I sharpened my Queen D2 copperhead at about 10 degrees per side with a coarse stone, then used the Sharpmaker at 20 degrees per side. It seemed like the edge I got with the medium Sharpmaker stones was just as good as the edge that the fine stones produced for some reason.

When I finished with the white (fine) rods, the blade would shave arm hair, but it still didn't push cut quite as well as I thought it could. Under a microscope at 100x, I saw that there were jagged "teeth" and microscopic chips along the edge. The edge on other steels looks like more of a straight line, with less irregularities, at that magnification.

I guess the theory is that D2 should be sharpened at a relatively high angle and left with a coarse finish to take advantage of its large carbides. Cliff Stamp recently suggested a method using fine diamond stones to try and get a finer edge on D2, which sounded interesting, but a toothy edge isn't necessarily bad.

Ben Dover said:
I don't get a burr at all since I use a Sharpmaker and alternate strokes.
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It's funny you should mention that. Last night I was resharpening that same knife on the Sharpmaker (alternating sides) and I was somehow able to make a burr. :confused: That shouldn't even be possible! LOL. Maybe it's because one of my stones is slightly warped. Or, I just wasn't paying attention to what I was doing.
 
cerulean said:
Hmm... yeah.

I sharpened my Queen D2 copperhead at about 10 degrees per side with a coarse stone, then used the Sharpmaker at 20 degrees per side. It seemed like the edge I got with the medium Sharpmaker stones was just as good as the edge that the fine stones produced for some reason.
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I don't use the white rods at all on my D-2 knives. Using only the grey rods leaves a semi-toothy edge that slices like all hell. But with effort, you CAN get a push-cutting edge on D-2 with the grey rods only.

IMHO, the white rods "polish" the edge too much, and take away some of the heavy slicing capability. I want "scary sharp" but I also want to be able to slice through rope or seat belts, especially with the Benchmade 710 D-2. Actualy, I think even my little Queen Strockman would do in a seatbelt if need be.
 
rosconey2 said:
you put way too much into rc ratings-
canal street knives have a great fit and finish-and they cut just as good as any other knife-
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Really, just as good as any other knife?

If 420 at 54rc is acceptable to someone, they probably wouldn't/shouldn't have even asked. It's hard to imagine something worse.
 
It depends what you're cutting. 420 with a low rc can work fine for food prep or something, but it's going to suck at whittling wood. You're gonna spend way more time sharpening than whittling.
 
Longbeachguy- thanks for pointing me to Moore Maker knives. Right now my #1 choice for function is the Stockman in Water Buffalo horn and 1095. My #2 is the same knife only in yellow bone. But that darn CSC small stockman in 420 is still burned into my eyeballs. So is the Queen in MOP and D-2 but one drop onto a tile floor and I could be screwed with the mother of pearl slabs.

It took me 10 years of searching to find my perfect EDC "tac' folder. I am so screwed now with these slip-joints. "Sorry kids, daddy would have liked to send you to college.... but here, have a pocket knife instead".
 
To be honest, I must admit that my experiences over my lifetime have given me a a strong prejudice against all stainless steel for knives and guns.


But having said that, I think 420 stainless is the worst junk that any knife maker ever used to make a blade.
 
I have to say that my opinion is pretty much the same as Ben's. For how I use a knife, I have yet to find a stainless (and I've tried most of them, and the newest ones too) that works as well as a good carbon. If my primary use was food prep, I'd maybe feel different. That is about the only area I can see where stainless is a better choice. Even then, carbon works fine if you maintain it. Or if you are working in a saltwater environment. But for wood working uses, cabon beats stainless every way that matters.
 
Sorry, no I don't. I was making an assumption that they were using 420HC, but I don't know anything more that I can add to the discussion.
 
On CSC's website on the page about their numbering system it lists steels and while not conclusive, the 420 is listed as "420 high carbon" which is basically what the HC in 420HC stands for, I thought.

http://www.canalstreetcutlery.com/nusy.html

That may be stretching it, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to consider the 420 is 420HC.
 
Amos Iron Wolf said:
On CSC's website on the page about their numbering system it lists steels and while not conclusive, the 420 is listed as "420 high carbon" which is basically what the HC in 420HC stands for, I thought.

http://www.canalstreetcutlery.com/nusy.html

That may be stretching it, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to consider the 420 is 420HC.
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But they also list 1095 as high carbon. Has it ever been listed as 1095HC? Also they are careful to list 440C as opposed to 440. I'm just not sure sure at this point.
 
Yep, it's a head scratcher. It sure would be nice, not to mention helpful if they would just tell us what the heck kind of 420 it is.

Okay, I got the Canal Street Trapper in D2 today. While I have one or two issues with it, it is a good looking knife AND the blades came VERY sharp! The blades are shave it smooth sharp, slice thin strips off a thick, tough, leather strap I use for comparisons, and goes through 1/2 Manila rope faster than my Moras, and my Moras cut like crazy. Newsprint? Confetti time. I don't know if all CSCs come that sharp, but these D2 blades tell me that yes, D2 is fully capable of taking a seriously sharp edge! Now if I'll be able to restore that edge when the time comes may be another story. Of the four or five D2 knives I've recently aquired, all Queens except this CSC, this is hands down the sharpest.

Since this was intended to be a carry knife, the above is good news. My only real gripe is the blades have to be pushed almost all the way shut before the springs will close them the rest of the way, and they barely do that. The springs are reasonable at holding the blades open, but on the close they leave something to be desired. I don't need slamming type snap as that type of repeated closure can be hard on a knife. However, I would like at least a modicum of snap. The only other area of fuss is the fit between the springs and the liners. If Schrade can make a nearly seamless line between the springs and the liners and still have a knife that closes reasonably, on an End-of-Days trapper that I got for under $20, why can't CSC, when fit and finish are their key selling points? The CSC does make up for it big time with the cutting performance right out the box. Yep, gonna be some pocket time for this critter.
 
Mr. gbaker, I believe that 1095 is high carbon w/o any HC. It is being compared to the other 10 series steels (e.g. 1050) which have lower carbon content. They put the "C" designation on 440, because there are big differences in carbon content plus other elements between 440A, 440B, and 440C, and the old CPM440V.
 
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