Current Military and Law Enforcement Knives

Gerber has done a halfway decent job trying to keep their MP 600 series current with the needs of the military.

I have 5 multi-tools. Three are modified Gerbers. I reach for those over my Leatherman or SOG.

I think it’s generally fair to say that multi tools are probably the one area where Gerber products don’t suck.

Their USA made autos (the 06 especially) can be decent, but they still turn out plenty that are barely functional.
 
Anything by Dietmar Pohl, but the most applicable is Modern Knives In Combat. M.H. Cole's U.S. Military Knives, Bayonets, & Machetes is a tremendous volume. The military knives theme runs throughout Leroy Thompson's knife books, but particularly Survival/Fighting Knives and Fairbairn-Sykes Commando Dagger. Robert Hunt's Randall Fighting Knives In Wartime has a lot of good information pertaining to carry of Randalls. You might research the writings of Frank Trzaska, one of the foremost experts on U.S. military knives in America. Those are good starting points.

-Steve
Excellent, very helpful, thanks.
Fairbain-Sykes and Randall contributions are well known to me as names from history, simply from being an avid knife-knut.
As mentioned, I'm primarily interested in current influences and developments in the military knife arena. I'll check out the other names you provided. What's become apparent is many of today's knife companies have former military on staff or are even the head of such companies. Strider is an example of the latter, I believe.

I think, or have always believed rightly or wrongly, that knife innovation used to occur primarily from the battlefield. I'm curious if that's still happening and is ultimately trickling down to the average dude with a folding blade in his pocket today. Along that line, I'm curious if the folder has a place in today's military, which would be a change from history. The USMC Strider SMF discussed earlier looks like such an example and ultimately saw the Hinderer lock stabilizer employed.

This certainly looks like a subject with a lot of depth and encompasses two of my greatest interests-- knives and history. Just hoping to learn something along the way :thumbsup:
 
I think it’s generally fair to say that multi tools are probably the one area where Gerber products don’t suck...

Actually they do. The quality of steel they use has much to be desired.

Also, the finish that they use is kind of detrimental. A stonewash finish would be a much better route to go.

With all of that said I still prefer them to Leatherman. I find Gerber multi tools to work better for me because of the ergonomics. Whenever I am cold wet and tired I’m still able to gain access to the tools much easier than most other brand multi-tools.
 
CE-21 by Pine Moon, on Flickr

From an article in SWAT magazine
https://www.swatmag.com/article/cutting-edge-striders-db-concealable-crowbar-edge/

Original prototype is in the center. On the left, top to bottom, are an early production version, the Gunner Grip and a prototype DB-L made for a firearms manufacturer. On the right, a current production model, one of the Ontario PD Air Support Unit models and the DB-L NSN as issued in the USMC Assaulters Kit.


This is a good example of what I'm seeking in this thread. This knife began in the late 1990s as a Strider WB and appears to pre-date the modified Emerson SARK. (P-SARK) in post # 70 here. Dan Bolke (long retired, possibility deceased) looks like one of those who thought outside the box in law enforcement. He consulted with two manufacturers, Strider and Emerson, and took existing knives as a blueprint to expand on his specific needs. Pretty cool. I wonder if his California departments are still using these products.

Thanks T tusk212

No problem. Minor correction, it's Darryl Bolke, not Dan. He has since retired from LE due to injury, but he is still around and pretty active on Facebook. He is part owner of Hardwired Tactical Shooting which does firearms training. He's also has worked with Joe Watson on some knives (the HiTS and Gamboa).
 
I didn't make fun of anyone's answers. Anyone who wrote something substantive and factual about the topic would correctly assume that I wasn't calling his post drivel.

I have no idea what you mean by referring to my post as anecdotal. The threads I referenced speak for themselves. Are you suggesting that I didn't supply evidence for my assertions about the brands I listed? If so, my answer is this: I try not to post frivolously on these forums and I'm not defending a Ph.D. dissertation here. If someone doesn't believe what I've said about those brands being purchased and issued by military units, he's welcome to research it himself.




I never said anything to the contrary. And I certainly never said, implied, suggested, or even hinted that there have ever been universally issued military knives. They are ALL issued by unit (or even individually), regardless of how they are procured, which is why there are so many differing accounts of who has received what.

As responses in these types of threads have have shown over the years, guys in the same unit at different times or under different commanders may have radically different experiences. Just because a guy in 3rd Ranger Battalion in 1986 didn't receive a knife it doesn't mean that a guy in 3rd Ranger Battalion in 1990 didn't get issued one. And neither guy's experience accurately reflects the whole picture of which knives the 3rd Ranger Battalion has procured and issued throughout its history.

I don't have a problem with people relating their personal stories in answer to these threads. I love reading those. I do have an issue with people turning their personal experiences (or, worse, personal opinions) into blanket statements that they try to pass off as universal truths.
-Steve

Well, "Steve", let me set you straight since you seem to need it. When you come blustering in and call other peoples' posts "drivel", and attempt to set yourself up as some sort of an authority (something you failed at), you don't really get to act shocked that you got the responses you did.

Also?

"I don't have a problem with people relating their personal stories in answer to these threads. I love reading those. I do have an issue with people turning their personal experiences (or, worse, personal opinions) into blanket statements that they try to pass off as universal truths."

No one cares what you have an issue with. You aren't an arbiter of deciding what people get to share, personal opinions, stories, or otherwise. Period. Now then, want to stick around and participate, then feel free. But acting like you get to nullify other peoples' posts isn't going to fly around here. You have a great weekend.
 
I had a LEO friend back in the '90s/early 2K who used to carry an old Benchmade Tsunami tanto-bladed folder, and a CRKT KISS in another pocket. He told me that sometimes he only carried the KISS. He ended up breaking the blade on his Benchmade folder. His knives were not issued; he had purchased them himself. Last I heard, he was still in law enforcement, but now works behind a desk. I don't know if he still carries a knife; time and distance and all that...

Jim
 
96813_F82-_CCD6-4929-9031-_D2_B3720_B31_BC.jpg



just a suggestion...
 
Well, "Steve", let me set you straight since you seem to need it. When you come blustering in and call other peoples' posts "drivel", and attempt to set yourself up as some sort of an authority (something you failed at), you don't really get to act shocked that you got the responses you did.


Also?


"I don't have a problem with people relating their personal stories in answer to these threads. I love reading those. I do have an issue with people turning their personal experiences (or, worse, personal opinions) into blanket statements that they try to pass off as universal truths."


No one cares what you have an issue with. You aren't an arbiter of deciding what people get to share, personal opinions, stories, or otherwise. Period. Now then, want to stick around and participate, then feel free. But acting like you get to nullify other peoples' posts isn't going to fly around here. You have a great weekend.

Very helpful and topically relevant. Thanks.


-allegedly Strider SMFs to MARSOC units, although I have a lifelong friend who has been in several MARSOC units over his 15+ years (he’s an E7 now) and he’s never seen or heard of one. I would not put it past Mickey Burger to make that whole thing up...

The NSN on the Strider MARSOC SMF checks out. The quantities procured are actually higher than I would have expected.

IMG-7090.jpg



What's become apparent is many of today's knife companies have former military on staff or are even the head of such companies.

Definitely. The lines between "military input" and "input from former military personnel who now work for/consult with/own our company" have blurred considerably over the past two decades or so as veterans have entered the industry so prominently. I think both mechanisms are equally valid for developing knife innovations, but it makes it harder to trace the history sometimes.

Is every feature of a Spartan Blades knife "military-derived" just because the owners are retired Green Berets? Not necessarily. But you can bet that every design/construction element on a Spartan has been considered from the perspective of whether it's durable and functional enough to meet the needs of an infantryman.


I think, or have always believed rightly or wrongly, that knife innovation used to occur primarily from the battlefield. I'm curious if that's still happening and is ultimately trickling down to the average dude with a folding blade in his pocket today. Along that line, I'm curious if the folder has a place in today's military, which would be a change from history. The USMC Strider SMF discussed earlier looks like such an example and ultimately saw the Hinderer lock stabilizer employed.

Those are interesting questions and I look forward to reading how others answer them. Personally, I believe:

1) The folder certainly has a secure place among current military personnel. I don't see that changing, as most manufacturers have geared a significant portion of their offerings to the military demographic.

2) Many of the advancements in materials and construction methods of modern folders that make them strong enough to be useful to a soldier are the direct result of innovations supplied by and for our military.

Since you asked, I submit the following examples of real-world military/LEO necessity driving knife design.

This ARL-P4 knife, procured for EOD use, exists solely because military guys asked for it.

IMG-4731.jpg



It was feedback from military members that led from this Benchmade design

IMG-7087.jpg


to this model

IMG-7086.jpg


and eventually to this model.

IMG-7092.jpg


I'm certain of this because years ago I knew the head of Benchmade's Government Sales division and its Military Liaison representative and they told me about the design progression. Because the Military Liaison rep was a former SEAL, his recommendations also led to Benchmade making this model (I know they tested it, but I don't know if the SEALs ever adopted it).

IMG-7093.jpg



Law enforcement and rescue personnel input featured heavily in the design features of this Benchmade 917SBK Triage.

IMG-7088.jpg


I know that this model has been issued to at least one law enforcement specialty unit. How? Because the guy to whom it was issued showed it to me just this past week. It's a fantastic, well-executed design. He told me that he carries it sporadically, however, because he sometimes finds it too heavy.


-Steve
 
Very helpful and topically relevant. Thanks.




The NSN on the Strider MARSOC SMF checks out. The quantities procured are actually higher than I would have expected.

IMG-7090.jpg





Definitely. The lines between "military input" and "input from former military personnel who now work for/consult with/own our company" have blurred considerably over the past two decades or so as veterans have entered the industry so prominently. I think both mechanisms are equally valid for developing knife innovations, but it makes it harder to trace the history sometimes.

Is every feature of a Spartan Blades knife "military-derived" just because the owners are retired Green Berets? Not necessarily. But you can bet that every design/construction element on a Spartan has been considered from the perspective of whether it's durable and functional enough to meet the needs of an infantryman.




Those are interesting questions and I look forward to reading how others answer them. Personally, I believe:

1) The folder certainly has a secure place among current military personnel. I don't see that changing, as most manufacturers have geared a significant portion of their offerings to the military demographic.

2) Many of the advancements in materials and construction methods of modern folders that make them strong enough to be useful to a soldier are the direct result of innovations supplied by and for our military.

Since you asked, I submit the following examples of real-world military/LEO necessity driving knife design.

This ARL-P4 knife, procured for EOD use, exists solely because military guys asked for it.

IMG-4731.jpg



It was feedback from military members that led from this Benchmade design

IMG-7087.jpg


to this model

IMG-7086.jpg


and eventually to this model.

IMG-7092.jpg


I'm certain of this because years ago I knew the head of Benchmade's Government Sales division and its Military Liaison representative and they told me about the design progression. Because the Military Liaison rep was a former SEAL, his recommendations also led to Benchmade making this model (I know they tested it, but I don't know if the SEALs ever adopted it).

IMG-7093.jpg



Law enforcement and rescue personnel input featured heavily in the design features of this Benchmade 917SBK Triage.

IMG-7088.jpg


I know that this model has been issued to at least one law enforcement specialty unit. How? Because the guy to whom it was issued showed it to me just this past week. It's a fantastic, well-executed design. He told me that he carries it sporadically, however, because he sometimes finds it too heavy.


-Steve
Eh, not worth it.
 
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I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but Victorinox (SAK) has supplied folders to several dozen countries military, including US.
Commonly it is only to specific units. This was well discussed on a separate SAK board along with lists of countries supplied. Some listed:US, Germany, Dutch, Australia, Canada, Croatia, NATO, Luxembourg, Lithuania, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, France, Brunei, Singapore, Malaysia, Cyprus, Nigeria, South Africa. Many are private purchases with military insignia; others supplied in survival packs for certain units. All above from known examples.
Rich

Edit: Forgot to mention a SAK was issued to all Apollo and Space Shuttle crews.
Just did some searching at a SAK forum & it looks like Victorinox has indeed been pretty prolific in Military/LE supply worldwide over the years. Including their Swisstools too. Here’s a copy & paste from a list posted :

Current issue :
1. Switzerland - OHT (old models - 1890, 1908, 1951, 1961) + Swisstool Spirit
2. Germany - OHT (old - 108mm)
3. Netherlands - Dual Pro (old - alox Pioneer and Centurion) + Swisstool Spirit
4. Australia - Swisstool
5. Denmark - Swisstool (old - Adventurer with red scales and HMAK print)
6. Luxembourg - Green Forester (Tamoprint badge)
7. Norway - Swisstool
8. France - Swisstool (Felin project)
9. Qatar - OHT (Tamoprint badge)
10. Brunei - Centurion
11. Singapore - Black OHT or Bantam (private purchase both with black scales)
12. Malaysia - Army = Outrider camo with Philips (Tamoprint badge) and Police = ?
13. Swiss Joint Staff - Outrider
14. Kampfschwimmer (German Navy SEALs) - Rucksack
15. British RAF - Hunter (used in aircraft survival kits. Similar knife for the Canadian Air Force)
16. Dutch Air force and Navy Masteer - Craftsman
17. United Arab Emirates - OHT (Tamoprint badge)
18. Hungary - Black Forester (Tamoprint badge)
19. Indonesia - OHT (Tamoprint badge)
20. Austrian - Dual density OHT (Tamoprint badge)
21. Royal Thai - Dual density OHT (Tamoprint badge)
22. Kingdom of Saudi Arabia - Green OHT (Tamoprint badge)
23. Italian police (Polizia di Stato) - Black Rescue Tool (Tamoprint badge)

And in the past:
Cyprus - Nomad
Nigeria - Champion (red and blue scale versions with pruner blade)
South Africa - alox soldier/pioneer (nato stock number on scale)
Ireland - OHT (black scales with Tampoprint cap badge; 2000 made)
 
1) The folder certainly has a secure place among current military personnel. I don't see that changing, as most manufacturers have geared a significant portion of their offerings to the military demographic.

2) Many of the advancements in materials and construction methods of modern folders that make them strong enough to be useful to a soldier are the direct result of innovations supplied by and for our military.

I'm not high speed low drag, but like several in this thread, I fall into the "demographic" you're talking about. These are just my opinions on your opinions.

1) Yes, many in the Military carry folders. So do many civilians. I'd say the manufacturers have geared a significant portion of offerings to the tacticool military wannabe demographic, since that's bigger than the actual military demographic.

2) The biggest advancements in modern folder construction have been the liner and frame locks. As far as I know, neither of those were specifically military driven. As for materials, I guess the military has driven that in an indirect way. Titanium, G10, and Carbon Fiber are very prevalent in the aerospace industry, and innovation in the aerospace industry has typically been tied to government and military projects.
 
My LEO neighbor down the street carries a CS Tuff Lite. I know because I sharpen it for him (I'm the designated knife sharpener for hunter/camping friends etc).

He bought it himself because it was light, inexpensive, and had the tri ad lock.
 
I carry a Benchmade Auto Triage (LE). I keep an Esee 4 on my battle belt. Both have been awesome choices. Most cops use cheap knives, under $50. Especially for their folder.

We are issued a Benchmade Houdini tool.
 
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I guess I never really did say that I've been a cop for going on 10 years. In my career I've carried Emerson, Hinderer, ZT, CRK, and Strider, but I'm an outlier. Most cops I know carry knives that they got for free with a pair of boots if they carry a knife at all.
 
I think, or have always believed rightly or wrongly, that knife innovation used to occur primarily from the battlefield. I'm curious if that's still happening and is ultimately trickling down to the average dude with a folding blade in his pocket today.

Hmmm. I have no idea how many innovations trickled down from the battlefield to Joe Sixpack's EDC. Fun research project though.

I suspect that if today's military wanted to "innovate" a knife for the battlefield, it wouldn't turn out well. The establishment would come up with something hideously expensive, unusable, and ultimately not meeting the vision of the boys on the ground who initially requested it.

It would go through three dozen design iterations and ultimately wouldn't get "issued" until 2037, with the need for it long forgotten.

It would be the Bradley Fighting Vehicle of knives.
 
The NSN on the Strider MARSOC SMF checks out. The quantities procured are actually higher than I would have expected.

IMG-7090.jpg





Definitely. The lines between "military input" and "input from former military personnel who now work for/consult with/own our company" have blurred considerably over the past two decades or so as veterans have entered the industry so prominently. I think both mechanisms are equally valid for developing knife innovations, but it makes it harder to trace the history sometimes.

Is every feature of a Spartan Blades knife "military-derived" just because the owners are retired Green Berets? Not necessarily. But you can bet that every design/construction element on a Spartan has been considered from the perspective of whether it's durable and functional enough to meet the needs of an infantryman.




Those are interesting questions and I look forward to reading how others answer them. Personally, I believe:

1) The folder certainly has a secure place among current military personnel. I don't see that changing, as most manufacturers have geared a significant portion of their offerings to the military demographic.

2) Many of the advancements in materials and construction methods of modern folders that make them strong enough to be useful to a soldier are the direct result of innovations supplied by and for our military.

Since you asked, I submit the following examples of real-world military/LEO necessity driving knife design.

This ARL-P4 knife, procured for EOD use, exists solely because military guys asked for it.

IMG-4731.jpg



It was feedback from military members that led from this Benchmade design

IMG-7087.jpg


to this model

IMG-7086.jpg


and eventually to this model.

IMG-7092.jpg


I'm certain of this because years ago I knew the head of Benchmade's Government Sales division and its Military Liaison representative and they told me about the design progression. Because the Military Liaison rep was a former SEAL, his recommendations also led to Benchmade making this model (I know they tested it, but I don't know if the SEALs ever adopted it).

IMG-7093.jpg



Law enforcement and rescue personnel input featured heavily in the design features of this Benchmade 917SBK Triage.

IMG-7088.jpg


I know that this model has been issued to at least one law enforcement specialty unit. How? Because the guy to whom it was issued showed it to me just this past week. It's a fantastic, well-executed design. He told me that he carries it sporadically, however, because he sometimes finds it too heavy.


-Steve
Interesting to see the current relevance of the Strider MARSOC SMF. With dates ranging from 2015-18 on your above post that may be our most current issued knife yet. The Salt and Seal Pup are probably also current imilitary issues.

And it does appear Military input on today's civilian offerings has blurred. If a soldier isn't issued anything, SOG and Cold Steel are there to fill needs, and it looks like these brands are quite popular with special forces guys.

That ARL-P4 is a great example of current military input and influence. What I find of relevance is the intended use ( probing and disabling IEDs/ mines) and made from materials that are non-conductive. I can see the non-conductive factor trickling down to the civilian market for folks wanting to foil a metal detector, as well as certain job sectors where sparks are problematic, etc.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/i-need-help-finding-this-knife.1632007/

I'll close with another point on "military input" on today's knives.
And this is my opinion, not trying to pass anything off as fact.
100 years ago, people carried pocket knives influenced by years of farming/hunting/trapping/fishing.
I'm talking about the general public. These were slipjoints and the last thing you'd use in a fight.

Now, it appears the average person typically carries no knife, or if they do, it's a tacticool, beefy, overkill kind of thing that is certainly something you'd use in a fight. I can't help notice this and it's reflection on society as a whole. Maybe it's another topic altogether, but it's probably no coincidence that we see more restrictive knife laws cropping up. This concerns me as a knife nut as I want to carry and enjoy my knives.
It's a minor point to this discussion, so let's not get derailed over it.
 
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