Disappointing performance of CruWear on new Adamas

[Malty Falcon]

I've heard about an uncooled belt ruining the temper on a knife. But I find it difficult to believe that a large, good quality manufacturer would ruin their edges knowingly.

Does anybody have a factual confirmation that belt-grinding a super steel heats it up too much? Or is this still "an opinion" that folks hold because "their Daddy told them"?

 

[Mark Spark]

This has been tested and proven in many videos from channels including Outpost76, Tom Hosang Outdoors, many others. First they typically test edge retention with rope or cardboard, then sharpen, then retest,, repeat. It's not just Benchmade, although the Adamas seems to be the champ of burnt blades. Even Spyderco, fo instance, has the same problem. And Spyderco's US models are sharpened by robot, giving much better repeatability in edge angle in my experience. That tells me that no uncooled sharpening process will ever eliminate the problem. They need to use a water cooled belt or wheel. That is, if they care about their product.

 

[Malty Falcon]

Alright, then, this is starting to make sense why a supersteel factory edge is hard to replicate- I am having to get rid of more metal to achieve the same "sharpness", by getting to fresh steel.(?).

I am fairly proficient at sharpening normal knives, including 154CM, VG-10, and even Elmax. But 110 and 20V are much tougher for me. My BM Vector 496 was returned to BM for testing and re-profiling, because I thought the edge and bevel was poor for such a supersteel (20V). aThey said it tested at ROCKWELL 60, sounds good. A Spyderco knife with CPM 110 was so awesome when new, but the factory sharp edge was so hard to replicate that I paid a guy $15 to sharpen it. It now has a "working" edge, but not like the long-lasting factory edge that so impressed me when new.

I'd really like to achieve long-lasting sharp edges with harder steels, so I'll keep practicing.

 

[BillZee]

Alright, then, this is starting to make sense why a supersteel factory edge is hard to replicate- I am having to get rid of more metal to achieve the same "sharpness", by getting to fresh steel.(?).

I am fairly proficient at sharpening normal knives, including 154CM, VG-10, and even Elmax. But 110 and 20V are much tougher for me. My BM Vector 496 was returned to BM for testing and re-profiling, because I thought the edge and bevel was poor for such a supersteel (20V). aThey said it tested at ROCKWELL 60, sounds good. A Spyderco knife with CPM 110 was so awesome when new, but the factory sharp edge was so hard to replicate that I paid a guy $15 to sharpen it. It now has a "working" edge, but not like the long-lasting factory edge that so impressed me when new.

I'd really like to achieve long-lasting sharp edges with harder steels, so I'll keep practicing.

Still working on sharpening myself...
I have found those steel rods for chefs knives to bring back an edge I thought needed a stone.

 

[BillZee]

Buying a Benchmade reminds of the cute girl we all dated.......
One minute she loved us, next minute she was mad at us and we never knew why.
She sure was cute though.....

 

[soc_monki]

Alright, then, this is starting to make sense why a supersteel factory edge is hard to replicate- I am having to get rid of more metal to achieve the same "sharpness", by getting to fresh steel.(?).

I am fairly proficient at sharpening normal knives, including 154CM, VG-10, and even Elmax. But 110 and 20V are much tougher for me. My BM Vector 496 was returned to BM for testing and re-profiling, because I thought the edge and bevel was poor for such a supersteel (20V). aThey said it tested at ROCKWELL 60, sounds good. A Spyderco knife with CPM 110 was so awesome when new, but the factory sharp edge was so hard to replicate that I paid a guy $15 to sharpen it. It now has a "working" edge, but not like the long-lasting factory edge that so impressed me when new.

I'd really like to achieve long-lasting sharp edges with harder steels, so I'll keep practicing.

What are you using to sharpen? What are your angles? Pressure?

My setup is a coarse or extra coarse diamond stone, and a spyderco medium stone for a little refinement if I feel I need it or for some burr removal. Also, a loupe or other means of magnification helps see burrs you may not feel. I try and avoid burrs, but you can't always... Light touch helps.

A strong light source can help detect issues as well.

Haven't had any issues with any of my Benchmades, although I know I usually have to get through burned steel on pretty much any knife I have to get the best performance. And factory edges are usually very coarse, with just a little refinement to get rid of burrs. Spyderco calls it a "toothy polished". For a Benchmade, you'll want a very coarse stone (220 grit dmt is close, but they may be in the 100s), then just lightly use a very fine stone to finish.

Spyderco is about the same, although I don't think they go as coarse as benchmade does.

 

[soc_monki]

I've heard about an uncooled belt ruining the temper on a knife. But I find it difficult to believe that a large, good quality manufacturer would ruin their edges knowingly.

Does anybody have a factual confirmation that belt-grinding a super steel heats it up too much? Or is this still "an opinion" that folks hold because "their Daddy told them"?

Outpost76 on YouTube. Check out his m4 video with the benchmade super Freek. He sharpened it 16 times before getting repeatable results, and that was after the owner had sharpened it 3 or 4 times themselves. That was, imo, on the extreme end of the scale. I haven't had nearly that much trouble out of my knives.

Those belts and wheels will heat up the edge, and when you're talking about such a small amount of steel the heat goes up very fast and it's very easy to ruin the temper. It's just physics. Or thermodynamics. Or something. I'm just an electrician...lol

 

[Karl H]

Outpost76 on YouTube. Check out his m4 video with the benchmade super Freek. He sharpened it 16 times before getting repeatable results, and that was after the owner had sharpened it 3 or 4 times themselves. That was, imo, on the extreme end of the scale. I haven't had nearly that much trouble out of my knives.

Those belts and wheels will heat up the edge, and when you're talking about such a small amount of steel the heat goes up very fast and it's very easy to ruin the temper. It's just physics. Or thermodynamics. Or something. I'm just an electrician...lol

Honestly, it is quite disappointing that Benchmade (and other producers) do not seem to have put in much effort to avoid ruining the temper on their knives.

The added expense of adding a decent water cooling system and/or reducing the grinding speed seems like it would be fairly insignificant.

I would imagine that non-contact thermometers (IR guns) are also a relatively cheap and easy way to measure / control the temperature during grinding.

 

[soc_monki]

Honestly, it is quite disappointing that Benchmade (and other producers) do not seem to have put in much effort to avoid ruining the temper on their knives.

The added expense of adding a decent water cooling system and/or reducing the grinding speed seems like it would be fairly insignificant.

I would imagine that non-contact thermometers (IR guns) are also a relatively cheap and easy way to measure / control the temperature during grinding.

It's all about getting it done and getting it out the door. For the majority, what the companies do is good enough. It's a different world when it comes to us.

Could they do better? I'm sure they could. But at the end of the day it comes down to cost effectiveness and speed of production.

 

[Karl H]

It's all about getting it done and getting it out the door. For the majority, what the companies do is good enough. It's a different world when it comes to us.

Could they do better? I'm sure they could. But at the end of the day it comes down to cost effectiveness and speed of production.

I get the importance minimizing production time / maximizing throughput and controlling costs. I understand that a large part of their customer base won't notice or care.

It is mostly a question of ethics. Do you do the little things that maximize the value of your product or do you cut corners and devalue your products to save a buck?

 

[dman62]

No

The initial edge retention of this model is known to be poor. It's because they sharpen it on an uncooled belt sander which overheats the thin edge, ruining the temper. The cure is to sharpen it by hand enough to remove the damaged metal. You can find Youtube videos proving this. While you're at it, you can fix the angle so that it will cut. These usually come with a 22-25 per side angle, which is good enough to cut paper but not much else. For a tough steel like this, 15 dps is a no-brainer. Unfortunately, removing that much steel is going to take a few hours of careful work. I've managed to get mine down to 17 dps so far. Cutting is still mediocre probably due to the thick blade and low grind, but it's improving. Behind the edge thickness still about 0.025", pretty decent. If only they didn't sharpen the blade I could get a better knife for less work...Not uncommon on knives when new. With hold judgement until it’s been sharpened a few times.

 

[Mark Spark]

Nobody asked, but FWIW here's my opinion on the full size new Adamas.
I bought this at Turner's because the display example had a very good action and I liked the looks. I never had an Adamas because generally I don't really get the whole thick blade thing. Thick blades and flat grinds have ruined many Cold Steel staples, but I digress.
The handle is incredibly comfortable, which reduces the felt effort. Not only is it crazy thick, it's also chamfered to perfection. I always test this by carving through a piece of 1 x 2 douglas fir. Of about 40 pocket knives, this has the most comfortable handle for hard cutting. Also your hand can't go forward or back very far so the grip is very secure. Traction is decent due to the holes and slots, so that's a win too.
The action is good, great for a Benchmade. Part of this is they finally made a model where the washers are as large in diameter as fits. Maybe they're just buying standard sizes and they got lucky, who knows. I'll take it any way. The axis spring pressure is light though, which I don't get. It's about the same as the original Presidio, lighter than Presidio II's. Since most parts of the Adamas are thicker/stronger than the Presidio, I don't get the light spring. I'm obsessing over this because spine whack failure is the weakness of the axis lock, and the weak spring isn't helping. Maybe someone flips a coin to pick the spring.
The blade looks really good with that cool blood groove. The tungsten grey color with white silkscreen is a huge win too. Little things like that probably boost sales more even than the blade steel. Speaking of Cruwear, how can a knife nut resist? It may add $80 dollars to the price and $10 to the cost. But I'm not complaining, I appreciate the chance to buy it. Good for Benchmade.
I love this knife, but I have to be honest and say it cuts worse than average. In wood or cardboard the effort is noticably high. The problem isn't behind the edge thickness. It started about 0.023" at about 22 dps, and is about 0.025" at 17 dps. That's no different than knives I have that cut better. I think the problem is the main grind angle which is 12 degrees total. Plus the coating friction is probably hurting it.
I like the fact that it's strong. The pivot screw is a beast. I don't like to pry with a knife, but I like knowing the knife will handle it well.
I'd say this knife works best for self defense or maybe as a survival pocketknife if there is such a thing. For heavy cutting use you'd be better off with a Presidio II or a Shaman.
If I could change one thing about it, I'd give it a hollow grind. The Cruwear will absorb 4 times the energy for the same size chip as S30V. It doesn't need a thick edge. A hollow grind would make it cut. Too bad hollow grinds are out of fashion.
Conclusion: Pricey, but recommend.

After owning and using this for almost three months, I wish to update my review.
This knife has improved in my estimation because:
It seems to have extremely good edge retention; I don't know why since Cruwear isn't that high in measurements, but it just stays very sharp.
It is easy to get very sharp. All it takes is a sharpmaker, it doesn't require diamond abrasives. It is the easiest steel to get very sharp that I know of. However, this applies once you get the profile where you want it. It took me a while to get it to 15 dps even with diamond stones. The steel feels very hard when sharpening.
The action has stayed excellent and I haven't even needed to adjust the pivot.
I'm now happy with the cutting performance. I guess it just needed a lower angle. Maybe the coating got smoother although it still looks new. It felt rough at first. It cuts better than you'd expect for 0.025" bte and a thick saber grind. Probably the handle comfort lowers the perceived force.
Nothing about it bugs me. The ergonomics are fantastic.
The anodized clip is very discrete, and wears exceptionally well. Still no wear visible on it.
In summary, I now give this knife a strong recommend. Because of its durability and quality I think it's worth the relatively high price. It's almost my favorite knife.

 

[Delta-v]

After owning and using this for almost three months, I wish to update my review.
This knife has improved in my estimation because:
It seems to have extremely good edge retention; I don't know why since Cruwear isn't that high in measurements, but it just stays very sharp.
It is easy to get very sharp. All it takes is a sharpmaker, it doesn't require diamond abrasives. It is the easiest steel to get very sharp that I know of. However, this applies once you get the profile where you want it. It took me a while to get it to 15 dps even with diamond stones. The steel feels very hard when sharpening.
The action has stayed excellent and I haven't even needed to adjust the pivot.
I'm now happy with the cutting performance. I guess it just needed a lower angle. Maybe the coating got smoother although it still looks new. It felt rough at first. It cuts better than you'd expect for 0.025" bte and a thick saber grind. Probably the handle comfort lowers the perceived force.
Nothing about it bugs me. The ergonomics are fantastic.
The anodized clip is very discrete, and wears exceptionally well. Still no wear visible on it.
In summary, I now give this knife a strong recommend. Because of its durability and quality I think it's worth the relatively high price. It's almost my favorite knife.

It's always nice to see someone come back and share after putting in some time with a knife. I've got a Mini Adamas and it's right at the top of my collection too. I just love the thing.

 

[JLCNON]

I have the Adamas mini and the factory edge on it was about the worst I have ever received from Benchmade. After a lot of frustration I used a WorkSharp grinder and now have it hair shaving sharp.

The problem I’ve noticed, if it really is one, is that the edge needs to stropped fairly regularly if you are breaking down a lot of boxes etc. That said, as long as I strop it when it seems to not be cutting like butter anymore the thing comes right back to shaving sharp.

 

[nigol]

Outpost76 on YouTube. Check out his m4 video with the benchmade super Freek. He sharpened it 16 times before getting repeatable results, and that was after the owner had sharpened it 3 or 4 times themselves. That was, imo, on the extreme end of the scale. I haven't had nearly that much trouble out of my knives.

Those belts and wheels will heat up the edge, and when you're talking about such a small amount of steel the heat goes up very fast and it's very easy to ruin the temper. It's just physics. Or thermodynamics. Or something. I'm just an electrician...lol

How was there any usable blade life left after that many sharpening? I seen the video also. The guy said he flipped the burr many many times. Each time a burr is created and removed there are literally thin shards of metal left behind. This obviously takes away from the blade life every time it is done. So 13 times? My m4 freek factory edge was horrible. I reprofiled once and it cuts perfect now.

 

[soc_monki]

How was there any usable blade life left after that many sharpening? I seen the video also. The guy said he flipped the burr many many times. Each time a burr is created and removed there are literally thin shards of metal left behind. This obviously takes away from the blade life every time it is done. So 13 times? My m4 freek factory edge was horrible. I reprofiled once and it cuts perfect now.

I've had my Shaman for 3 years now? I use it a lot, and have sharpened it quite a bit more than he sharpened that Freek. Comparing it to a newer Shaman (I have a few) there's not a whole lot of difference.

I have a feeling it would take quite a few more sharpenings for it to really show a change.

 

[Lesknife]

Yeah factory edges are done with a belt grinder or similar power grinder. I’ve noticed that they chip or dull fairly quickly. After a few hand sharpening you get to fresh metal that hasn’t been burned or bad apex temper or carbide tear out/ loose and then they perform much better. The higher the hrc hardness the longer it will take so be patient!