Does your Seb. 21 Damascus pattern disappear?

[expidia1]

Opinions please . . .
Background: I purchased a large Sebenza 21 CG raindrop handle here with a Damascus blade.
The owner damaged the blade by stropping and hitting the sides leaving shiny parts. Note: the lower blade is darker and the pivot area shows erosion because he acid washed the blade trying to repair it without protecting the pivot area. The acid wash also removed too much metal changing the blades CRK tight tolerances.

So before he was to resell it he sent it back to CRK and they put a new $300 blade on it.

I bought it from him sight unseen. What I did not know is that CRK replaced his blade with a Chad Nichols version which is the only one they now use for their large Seb. 21's.
I called them and asked if they had any Devin Thomas blades still in stock and they said no.

My issue: I happen to prefer the bolder raindrop design of a Devin Thomas blade rather than the tighter design of the CN.
See the two blades pictured together the lower one is the DT.
Also check out the pic of a new one offered on Ebay with the wood inlays. Check how it's all blurry from the angle they dumbly took that pic.


I personally can't see myself paying upwards of $200 for a Damacus blade that its pattern can only be enjoyed from certain angles, so I re-sold the Raindrop CN version here and also re-sold the DT blade that the owner damaged.

Between the two blades CN vs DT designs . . . Since I was able to view them both together in my hands, my issue with the CN blade was I had to view it at a 45 degree angle just to see the full Damascus pattern. As soon as I rotate this CN blade slightly the pattern started to get blurry and just turned to looking at a grey blade.

The DT blade does not start blurring away its pattern as much as the CN did (and its a bolder design which I prefer).
I think one of the issues why the design starts disappearing is because that the Seb 21 blade is not flat, it is very convex (which is part of it's extreme beauty of it's blade design).

I just picked up a Gold Class BM Foray with a beautiful bold Damasteel pattern and the Damasteel design does not start disappearing when rotating the blade (but the blade is not curved like the Seb.). I also had a DT Damascus Mnandi which was gorgeous, but too small for my tastes, so I re-sold it.

So now I'm still in the market for a Large Sebenza 21 with wood inlays and a Devin Thomas Raindrop blade.

I ask for opinions, because I like a Damascus blade but I'm not mentally locked into just Raindrop. If you own a Devin Thomas Damascus blade in a large 21 and in another pattern does yours turn grey and blurry when you rotate it?
Which pattern doesn't do this as much (I don't know maybe they all do it because of the 21's blade curvature).
In the threads, I see CRK was producing some of their models with Damasteel. I'd like to buy a used DT 21 now since its my only choice and then if CRK starts offering Damasteel in a 21, I'll flip the one I bought for a new Damasteel 21 version.

But for now, I don't want to keep buying 21's just to try different DT blade patterns.

What say you?

 

[TYPE-R]

Damascus will fade with usage. Cody did an incredible review where he used a large DT Raindrop for a month or so.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...t-of-a-journey-w-october-2017-update.1515437/

I've carried a small 21 basketweave everyday for the past 3 weeks and haven't noticed much wear. It's gotten a few scratches near the tip but I bought it to be a user.
I actually prefer the basketweave because it looks like a grey blade unless you stop to examine it.
My opinion would be that if you plan on using the knife and are worried about the pattern fading then it might be better to sick to S35V blades.

 

[expidia1]

Damascus will fade with usage. Cody did an incredible review where he used a large DT Raindrop for a month or so.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...t-of-a-journey-w-october-2017-update.1515437/

I've carried a small 21 basketweave everyday for the past 3 weeks and haven't noticed much wear. It's gotten a few scratches near the tip but I bought it to be a user.
I like actually prefer the basketweave because it looks like a grey blade unless you stop to examine it.
My opinion would be that if you plan on using the knife and are worried about the pattern fading then it might be better to sick to S35V blades.

My post is not about the actual pattern of the metal "fading". It's about the pattern not able to be "seen" even with a brand new blade and the pattern design becomes less visible unless viewed directly from the side.
I was wondering if this was inherent in all Damascus patterns. Devin Thomas designs at least with the two different blades that I held in my hands . . . The DT vs Chad Nichols Raindrop patterns, I saw a big difference in pattern viewability between these two Smiths on two of the same Seb. 21 blades.

But I'll read your link as it all interests me. As me being a user with a Damascus blade . . . for my tasks, its only the edge that contacts whatever Im doing with the blade.

 

[TYPE-R]

Sorry, I thought you were talking about how it gets worse over time. Current DT and CN Damascus are dark etched patterns that pop when light hits it. I don't think any of the current offerings are visible at all angels like some of the older blades were. Spirograph and River of Fire are the ones that come to mind but good luck finding them now a days.

 

[expidia1]

Sorry, I thought you were talking about how it gets worse over time. Current DT and CN Damascus are dark etched patterns that pop when light hits it. I don't think any of the current offerings are visible at all angels like some of the older blades were. Spirograph and River of Fire are the ones that come to mind but good luck finding them now a days.

Ya, I'd like to snag a River of Fire for sure!
Viewed the thread. Interesting. But I was an Electrician's helper after highschool for a few years and I'm still scratching my head how one would use a beautiful Damascus blade to slice electrical wire etc. I used a cheapo $20 Buck knife for those tasks (and I still own that Buck 44 years later).

If I had an Electrician working for me with a $600 Damacus knife in his hand, I think I'd take another look at his job estimate. Especially if he pulled up in a BMW SUV

 

[TYPE-R]

Ya, I'd like to snag a River of Fire for sure!
Viewed the thread. Interesting. But I was an Electrician's helper after highschool for a few years and I'm still scratching my head how one would use a beautiful Damascus blade to slice electrical wire etc. I used a cheapo $20 Buck knife for those tasks (and I still own that Buck 44 years later).

If I had an Electrician working for me with a $600 Damacus knife in his hand, I think I'd take another look at his job estimate. Especially if he pulled up in a BMW SUV

I can't speak for him personally but from his posts it seems he uses what he likes, what makes him happy. Money shouldn't be a concern where happiness is involved.

 

[expidia1]

I can't speak for him personally but from his posts it seems he uses what he likes, what makes him happy. Money shouldn't be a concern where happiness is involved.

This is true! I was just speaking from "my personal" experience as an Electricians helper and again, thanks for that link.

 

[Wavicle]

They must use different steels and Chad’s works best with a light etch compared to Devin’s. DT Damascus has serious topography after etch and polishing whereas CN Damascus is nearly flat- you can feel the difference and that’s the primary reason you see the striking difference in contrast.

Keep in mind the deeper etch of DT removes more metal compared to CN— and not just a little. The Damasteel blades I have are similar to CN and have a narrow field of view like you describe.

Try using some synthetic gun oil to darken the etched areas to have better contrast. As noted earlier in your thread the etch will fade with use starting first around the thumb studs or nail nick.

I don’t use Renaissance wax because in my experience it messes up the etch and lowers contrast.

 

[expidia1]

They must use different steels and Chad’s works best with a light etch compared to Devin’s. DT Damascus has serious topography after etch and polishing whereas CN Damascus is nearly flat- you can feel the difference and that’s the primary reason you see the striking difference in contrast.

Keep in mind the deeper etch of DT removes more metal compared to CN— and not just a little. The Damasteel blades I have are similar to CN and have a narrow field of view like you describe.

Try using some synthetic gun oil to darken the etched areas to have better contrast. As noted earlier in your thread the etch will fade with use starting first around the thumb studs or nail nick.

I don’t use Renaissance wax because in my experience it messes up the etch and lowers contrast.

Thanks for that explanation of DT vs CN process . I’ve pretty much set my sights on picking up a DT version. You hit on the word I was looking for to describe the differences between the two and it was contrast. And the depth of the etching makes that contrast deeper as you described.

 

[Hackenslash]

You should consider that your singular experience with Devin Thomas Damascus is with a blade that was home etched out of spec. That’s not a great point of view upon which to base a grail search.

I have a DT damascus in a Sebenza and CN damascus in a Mnandi and only see a little difference between the two. The DT is a little bolder but both blades can get hazy if you orient them a certain way.

You may be unicorning.

 

[blanco112]

Spirograph has a pretty solid consistent pattern in any light and the contrast is nice. This is a dealer exclusive, the last of the Spirograph. Not sure I'm allowed to say who but if you search for it you can probably find the small 21 on their site.

 

[expidia1]

Yes, That is a great pattern. I almost pulled the trigger on one shown on Ebay, but $800 is way too much. Im really liking the lighter Box Elder handles now. I figure it looks like Mammoth, but when I pull it out . . . no one can accuse me of being the person responsible for their extinction 10,000 years ago .

The seller had both Chad Nichols and Devin Thomas versions for $800, but they still look pretty much the same to me, not bold enough for my tastes.

As I said in the above thread I can'tpay 100's more for a Damascus pattern that looks blurry grey from most angles except when viewed directly at 45 degrees. Thats how they shoot their representive pics!

I might have to wait until when and if ever CRK produces 21's in Damasteel.
The 1st pic is CN, the 2nd is DT . . .

The 3rd is how the pattern disappears. I don't mean from wear to the metal overtime, I mean when viewing the blade from various angles. If you've never actually had a CN or DT pattern in your hand its hard to see what I mean.
But the Devin Thomas Damascus pattern was bold and it did not disappear.
Probably the curvature of the Seb. 21 is a big factor with CN and DT patterns from my experience . . . YMMV

 

[TheMikeOfSteel]

I've carried a ladder DT Mnandi as an EDC for a considerable amount of time and haven't noticed any dramatic fading of the pattern.

 

[James Longstreet]

I would like to sort a few comments made above. This discussion is not new and I always wonder how people are making general statements like "Devin Thomas dammy does this", "Chad Nichols dammy does that". What people seem to forget is that both makers do supply their dammy according to specifications given by CRK and what also seem to get lost during discussions is how the production process of a dammy knife blade goes. Neither DT nor CN are supplying ready to be installed dammy blades to CRK. They are supplying billets of whatever size. Then CRK cuts out the blade profile (or has a subcontractor doing this). Then the blade grind is done. Then the blade receives its heat treatment and at the end it will be etched, to bring out the dammy pattern.

This means that the todays appearance of both, DT as well as CN dammy, at CRK blades is a result of the specs given from CRK to DT/CN and of the etching process. Searching the net you will find lots of examples of DT as well as CN dammy blades used by other knife brands, with a different appearance then at CRK dammy blades. Just one example. This is Chad Nichols "blackout" damascus made for Spartan Blades Harsey Folder:

Harsey Folder, 05 by Jedi, auf Flickr

Harsey Folder, 04 by Jedi, auf Flickr

Harsey Folder, 07 by Jedi, auf Flickr

Question is (and only CRK and CN could answer that question), why a CN dammy blade at a Spartan Blades folder has such a different appearance than a CN blade at a CRK folder. Maybe CRK has some good reasons to do so. No idea.

Originally DT was supplying all dammy material to CRK, except a few special editions, where dammy from other dammy smiths has been used. Comparing pics you search at the net you need to be careful not to compare apples with pears. There are different periods of dammy during the last decades. Starting with non stainless dammy, which is always darker and shows more contrast than stainless dammy, due to its higher share of carbon. Additionally those non stainless dammy blades were coated, in order to prevent them from rusting. That coating further stimulated its high contrast appearance.

Then there was a transition period, where they still coated the blades, although already switched to stainless dammy. Accordingly these blades also showed a higher contrast. After stopping the coating the stainless dammy blades at CRK knives showed their more grey than black appearance which we know today.

Still that time DT was the only supplier of dammy to CRK. After the Spirograph pattern was discontinued, Raindrop, Ladder and Basket Weave remained. Until approx. 2012/2013 DT's Raindrop was showing the tight rolls and everybody appreciated that raindrop.

21, UG Morning Sun, Raindrop, 05 by Jedi, auf Flickr

According to DT who commented a thread here at BF a few yours ago about the change in the CRK Raindrop pattern, it was CRK asking him to change. It wasn't him who decided to change. After that decisions the DT Raindrop looked more lose, like this:

21, Bocote, Raindrop, 09 by Jedi, auf Flickr

Many CRK fans started complaining about the new Raindrop, including myself. Many preferred the old tight rolls as that clearly associates with "raindrops". CRK did listen to their customers and I think around 2016/2017 they changed their supply of Raindrop dammy from DT to CN. Ladder and Basket Weave has remained being supplied by DT. Since then we see todays CN Raindrop, which is back to the old days Raindrop, with its tight rolls and that was received very well by the CRK community. But I agree with you, that the CN Raindrop has a lower contrast and seem to "fade" while turning the knife/blade and having the light impacting at the blade from different angles. See:

21, Thuya, Nichols Raindrop, 02 by Jedi, auf Flickr

or ..... same knife

21, Thuya, Nichols Raindrop, 08 by Jedi, auf Flickr

I have no idea whether CRK, in cooperation with CN, is going to change this in future. Again. CN dammy blades at Spartan Blades Harsey Folder do show a mich higher contrast.

Ladder and Basket Weave (still supplied by DT) are not showing this effect. I have seen many examples of Basket Weave, which seem to appear a bit more "shiny" than Ladder. But even among 2 Basket Weave blades you may have variations.

21, Plain, Basket Weave, 11 by Jedi, auf Flickr

Ladder:

21, Elder Burl, Ladder, 07 by Jedi, auf Flickr

21, Gabon Ebony, Ladder, 07 by Jedi, auf Flickr

This is a Sebenza 25 w. Ladder and the dammy is much darker and has higher contrast than usual. Do I know why? No idea.

25, CGG, Ladder, 05 by Jedi, auf Flickr

The lesson I have learned during collecting CRK is that I prefer buying from dealers who are showing pics of their actual knives for sale and not archive pics of previously sold knives or cataloge pics. Because dammy pattern as well as wood color and grain can vary a lot, I prefer to see what I am going to buy.

Hope this helps a bit.

 

[expidia1]

It didn't help a bit . . . It helped "a ton" . . . I appreciate how you explained the history of CRK with their Damacus blades and that it's CRK asking the two Smiths for those low contrast designs. I just figured they buy for so many years from a provider like Devin Thomas and then switch to Chad Nichols for a time in order to be fair to both providers.

Yes, I'm definitely a fan of the bolder patterns especially on the darker backgrounds like the Harsey folder by Jedi. I'd like nothing more than to see those designs on a Sebenza 21 with wood inlays as my Grail.
I really appreciate the time you took for your post and all those pic examples (it should be a sticky).

I'm tempted to ask CRK if they would make one up custom for me. Even if I had to wait 6 months for them to make me one up, it would probably be a shorter wait than hoping they change from what they offer now.

Maybe in the near future, Chris Reeve's Son will take advantage of seeing an increasing market place for Damasteel and bolder designs on the darker backrounds. I personally just never got their current low contrast Damascus designs on the light grey background.

I did pick up this BM Gold Class Foray a few weeks ago because I like the Damasteel patterns so much, but its far from the gorgeous (but plain) blade of my current 21:

 

[blanco112]

I would be hesitant to get too excited for bolder contrast from Damasteel. My Inkosi has a nice pattern and it does have decent contrast but the etch is still light and can "disappear" in the way that you mention. I've seen photos of others and depending on the angle it can become more grey. It still has good contrast because most of the blade is light colored vs the old damascus where most of the blade is dark.

I feel like crk is going for a lighter etch on purpose but I'm not sure why. At first I thought it was so they wouldn't have to mask the washer area and detent track (which I'm a bit disappointed about) but I understand they still do that with the CN Damascus so I'm not sure.

 

[expidia1]

Cool pic! Reminds me of Damasteel patterns (luv the little chick):

 

[James Longstreet]

This is a knife I made during a 2 day knife making course with a professional knife maker. It is damasteel "Thor" pattern. Next to it the 21 Thuya w. CN Raindrop:

Thor Damasteel & Thuya, 11 by Jedi, auf Flickr

Close-up at the damasteel:

Thor Damasteel & Thuya, 07 by Jedi, auf Flickr

Thor Damasteel & Thuya, 08 by Jedi, auf Flickr

 

[expidia1]

Wow, just spectacular. Thanks for posting them Luv the Seb also!

 

[expidia1]

Well, I threw in the towel and just ordered a large 21 Box Elder Chad Nichols Damascus to tide me over until CRK starts offering Seb 21 blades in Damasteel and who knows how long that might be . . . if ever!
Funny how my tastes keep changing. I loved the Spalted Beech inlay look (my EDC now) . . . until the Box Elder inlays grew on me.
I also only wanted a Devin Thomas Raindrop blade over the Chad Nichols version, but the Seller on Ebay was showing several models I was able to decide on the Chad Nichols version because when flipping back and forth on the pics the Devin Thomas blade reminds me more of a chain link fence pattern, where as the Chad Raindrop looks more like actual Raindrops.

Yes, I expect the CN pattern to look blurry grey (I already owned and resold a CG one) from various angles when it arrives this Monday, but both the CN or DT patterns do this. Everything is a bit of a trade off. This is why I prefer the Damasteel, my BM Damasteel does not blur its pattern when rotating the knife and its brighter and bolder etching.

I also paid "list price" for this Box Elder from an authorized CRK dealer. I'm tiring of buying "used" CRK's which sellers represent as mint or LNIB only to find later on that the washers were thinned. Not only are the scratches from the sanding clearly there on this last purchase I micro'ed the washers at .039mm (most come from factory around .041mm This is clearly causing the slight blade play. I find some sellers get us between a rock and a hard place when we are hot to trot finding a particular used model. By the time we ask a list of questions about a particular knife and await their answers, its already gone to the next seller who says "I'll take it". With the last Bocote I picked up a few weeks ago, I noticed the blade just before lockup had a little blade (CRK's from factory have zero play). Its hard to accuse the seller as some used CRK's might have been passed around by several owners and I once again did not ask the right questions, so it could have been the owner before him. All I know is I had to send it in for a Spa yesterday and now a 4-8 week wait before I can re-sell it since I'm using the proceeds towards my new Dammy Box Elder. At least CRK puts it in like new condition again for free!

I personally like the Box Elder over the Mammoth as most I have seen are plain milky white and I prefer the pattern of Box Elder which shows more of the character of the wood.
Here are two pics of the actual knife coming next week.