Ed Fowler

Sam Salvati

Sam Salvati

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Aug 6, 2007
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Ed Fowler said:
The ABS hierarchy no longer represents the organization I and many others joined years ago.

Many individual ABS members know the dream of what could have been and remain members in memory and honor of that vision.

Some join an organization for what they hope or feel they can do for the organization, others for what they feel or hope the organization can do for them.

When you bow to an organization for reward, you can easily fall into the box.

Control is subtle at first, then as time and events pass freedom is lost.
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Ed, you said in the next comment, lots of stories but for another thread. Could you please elaborate a bit on your experience with the ABS from the beginning and how things have changed from the original vision, and what the original vision was? Alot of young guys take things as they are, not knowing what was or what could have been.e
 
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Good question Sam. I hope Ed answers. I hope others feel they can insert their opinions also. I look forward to seeing this played out. Though I do not have anything to add. :)
 
I do not mean to restrict this to anyone else, jsut that Ed mentioned it recently. If anyone feels the same about the ABS, please by all means weight in.
 
It is my understanding the ABS was formed to help preserve and revitalize the hand forged blade, which was a dying art. It is my opinion that the current state of the ABS and the member's work has elevated the art of the hand forged knife beyond what it ever was. On the surface, that is a good thing, because the blades being made by the more accomplished members are more than just pretty art pieces, they're exceptional knives.

But, it is my opinion that the pursuit of "excellence" has had a couple unintended consequences. One, to the casual observer, many of the knives look alike. They're approaching some stylized archetype. Two, the art of bladesmithing (the original purpose of the ABS) does not necessarily have to include these perfectly finished pieces. Having looked at pictures of several blades that could have been the original Bowie knife, it is obvious to me that knives used to look different from each other and weren't finished like an SPI A1 lens mold.

I think there could stand to be more diversification, and a better "test" of the quality of a knife.
 
Sam; I was thinking about starting this thread myself when I read Ed's comments. Not to call him out or anything, but just that I'm curious as what the problems are, He is one of the guys I look up to on these forums. and I have been wanting to join the ABS. So I'm very curious as to the politics I might encounter, and such.

Jason
 
I kind of cringed when the ABS was mentioned in the other thread. They're some strong feelings and these threads can get nasty. Hopefully this one wont.

I'm an ABS member as is Ed Fowler, our knives are completely different and also non typical ABS in style. One can be an ABS member and still make what ever kind of knives they want to.

The ABS is by no means perfect, no organization is perfect. Although I belong, I am not limited by the org. :D
 
I don't think the ABS polices what folks think or make. What they might offer to some, at least for testing purposes, would be to put folks on even footing across town, state, country or even the world. Any other options out there to gauge or measure ones abilities in an organized environment?

It comes down to pure preferences, Craig
 
I applaud Sam and Ed for this thread. An introsopective discussion will benefit all as long as it remains civil. I would certainly like to know more about the history and changes through time even if it's one man's opinion.

It should be understood by those of experience, that organizations that form with intent, usually change paths and lose their original direction with time. This is to be expected. Mission statement and values are created to help frame changes and to reset the 'intent'. But often these are ignored.

Discussion however, is valuable even if it doesn't impact on change.
 
I'm not a smith and as much as at times I would like to be, I will never get involved with physically trying. When my blood was running hot to give it a try, it was all the hammer thing and the coal forge. The grinding thing where I am involved has changed tremendously as well. There are several known makers of quality work who have parts cut by someone else and as well there are makers whose blade grinding takes place on a milling machine. I sincerely believe that knife making has evolved far beyond "hand made". As I have said before, I believe "it's not how its made or who made it, but how good it is."
Frank
 
I second what Frank says, the quality of the blade is first and foremost. That is the goal of all Handmade knife makers, excelling on fit and finish, edge geometry, function and eye appeal should matter more than wether the blade was hand forged. I understand that hand forging a blade was a dieing art form, and I know that it has benefits that stock removal can't replicate. But, in the same respect, stock removal has benefits that forging can't copy as well. Truthfully, BOTH are an art that takes emense skill, paitience and time to master. Why can't both forms be respected? There are makers that use mills, lathes, etc., that turn out exquisite blades with phenomenal fit and finish as well as function. So why should the ABS shun those makers? Not that their completely left out, they are still included, but not held to the highest esteem. Seems to me that as everything else has to evolve, the ABS should evolve to include Stock Removal makers (maybe) in a seperate catergory, at the very least it will increase income and boost membership. Please keep in mind, I'm a new maker and not a member of any organization yet. I mainly do stock removal right now, but have the equipment to forge as well. After Christmas I'll be forging more,and getting togther with other makers that I can learn from. It is interesting and amazing to see a knife take shape before my eyes, but I don't see ever NOT doing stock removal, as it's a way that I know I can make what I want to make and get the results I want. Just the 2 cents of a newby. Not to make this thread turn ugly, but I have heard of a maker applying for his JS Stamp and being turned down, later to find out that they would never pass because certain Master Smiths didn't like him. This was heard from a friend, no names were mentioned so take it with a grain of salt. Personally, I will be testing for my JS one day, once I get good enough to make blades worthy, every time! I'm still scraping blades that don't meet my standards. Once I get to the point of making my knives the way I see them in my head, and test out to the quality that makes me happy, I'll know. The bottom line is the ABS is the best organization going. There are faults in every organization there is, the best thing we can do is get involved and work toward making changes for the better, moving the ABS into the 21st century. Civil discussion is the way to begin change, members should have some say as to the way the organization conducts bussiness, so the first thing we should do is get as many like minded people together, join up and make movements toward changes for the better. Thanks for listening to my 2 cents worth of opinion,
Rex




I sincerely believe that knife making has evolved far beyond "hand made". As I have said before, I believe "it's not how its made or who made it, but how good it is."
Frank[/QUOTE]
 
Don Hanson III said:
I kind of cringed when the ABS was mentioned in the other thread.
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Me too Don.

In relationship to the other thread though,... I would say that the ABS could either be a way in or a way out of a box, depending on your perspective.
 
... I don't think that the topic "Ed Fowler" is really appropriate for this thread.
 
This is in response to Rmclellan. I forge the majority of my blades but also do stock removal on S.S. The ABS rules state that only a forge blade can be marked with the MS and JS stamp. I will continue to do stock removal just not put my JS stamp on it, and I don't know of any ABS guy who's recieved a nasty letter for using Stainless.
 
Rex, there already exists a separate but truly equal organization, the Knifemaker's Guilde. They are to my knowledge exclusively stock removal.

EDIT*oh no, reding the bylaws on the guild website it says:

Section 4:

The Guild recognizes that the term “Handmade Knives” is difficult to define and subject to varying interpretations, but hold that, at a minimum, it requires that a maker personally grind, forge, or knap the blade, and honestly disclose how each component is produced.
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But they do not designate one way or another.
 
Let's keep the OP goal in mind here, this is not a witch hunt on the ABS, just a question for the seasoned old timers who have seen the birth and growth or lack thereof of what the ABS has been and or is about.
 
I have and continue to address the issues that may follow on our forum. The rules on our form are simple: treat all with respect and dignity and do not be afraid to debate or state your opinions. I also hope this discussion follows the same guidelines. Critics are an absolute necessisty to our development.

While reading my thoughts please remember this was a long time ago, variables that are well defined today were questions then. My comments are not meant toward the individual smiths of the ABS but to the desire to voice my thoughts in the hopes that one day new members will take over the Board of the ABS and it will return to what I feel were good times.

For example: we tried to make Damascus steel using a propane forge in Leon's shop, could not get it hot enough to weld and decided it could not be done. It took several years and we learned how to adjust air and propane and it became a simple event.

When I met Bill Moran and the ABS it was at Trail Lake Lodge near Dubois Wyoming at what may have been the first hammerins.

Bill presented himself as a true gentleman and absolutely willing to share knowledge without holding anything back. Those hammerins were magnificent and I learned a lot and was more than welcome as a visitor. Bill, Margaret and I became friends, I kept Margaret's letters and look back on them with good times remembered.

Opportunity presented itself and I was able to attend a week or so working with Bill and one other student at the shop of Leon Bergman Head of the Department of Geology from the University of Wyoming.

We forged blades from round bars as that was the only carbon steel available at the shop. My first concern was my observation that most of the forged blades I saw at the hammerin had the design feature of the recessed ricasso. I watched Bill forge his demonstration blade and told him that the recessed ricasso was something I did not want on my blades and asked him if it was necessary in the forged blade? Bill said "Hell No!" and proceeded to show me how to forge a blade without the recessed ricasso. I forged somewhere around 10 blades without the recessed ricasso with Bill's coaching. Personally I have absolutely no appreciation of the recessed ricasso when function is the basis for its existence. At the time I had field dressed more game than most will in a life time and was doing volunteer work on a local kill floor and came to know the recessed ricasso as a design fault, inconvenience and unnecessary as well as hazardous.

I will note here that not one of my show blades for the JS or MS stamps had a recessed ricasso. Had it been a requirement I would have dropped out at that time.

As there were only two students, I had Bill at my mercy and filled two Big Chief notebooks with notes. Our discussions lasted for hours and were worth every minute (to me at least). Bill knew that there was a lot to be learned about the nature of the forged blade. He talked about French Photomicrographs of forged blades and the potential knowledge they offered. He mentioned the positive aspects of forging to shape, I asked about the significance of rate of reduction by forging in conjunction with forging to shape. We discussed this at length and decided it may be a highly significant variable. My first forged blade failed the 90 degree bend, Bill said he was sorry, I was delighted for I had a challenge to learn why.

I joined the ABS, the board at the time was one of vision, Bill Moran, Paul Burke, Joe Cordova, Jay Hendrickson, Gordon Bloomquist and Handford Miller. Men from various walks of life with a lot of knowledge all directed to what were the objectives at the time. The Promotion and Development of the Forged Blade. The men on the board offered nothing but encouragement to experiment, learn and share our experiences.

I have many letters passes back and forth concerning the experiments I would be attempting in the future.

At my first Blade Show when I was presenting my blades for the JS stamp judging a mastersmith approached me and asked how I could consider a blade without a recessed ricasso a forged blade? I asked him why a design fault had to be a prerequisite to the forged blade? The volume of our voices increased as we debated, a crowd gathered, then Margaret stepped in between us and told the other bladesmith to go back to his table and behave himself. She took me by the arm and walked me back to my table scolding me like I was a little kid!

My blades without the recessed ricasso passed and I received my JS stamp.
The handles were sheep horn and not symmetrical, they did fit the human hand to my thoughts of perfection.

Time passed and I stumbled on the benefits of Multiple Quench. The powers of the ABS attempted to ban me for heresy.

A board member defended me (it would be years until I learned about the dynamics of this event) and it ended up with the President Joe Cordova thanking Wayne Goddard and I for our devotion to the development of the forged blade and contributions to the ABS.

The word Development was dropped from the statement of purpose.

Rather than many makers making tributes to the mass produced Sheffield knives of the 19Th century that dominated our market before the tariffs of the 1860's, I hoped to see an organization building knives better than the world had ever seen, leaders with vision promoting individual achievements and taking the art of the forged blade to higher levels in both function as well as polish.

The demands of fit and finish have increased astronomically in the past and this fact is held as an achievement. The Recessed Ricasso is now a prominent feature of all judged blades. And has become what some know as the ABS blade.The ABS has come to dictate style without benefit of individual creativity, that could benefit both to the organization as well as the individuals. Freedom of expression is basic to the vitality of communities.


The fact that the performance qualities of the blades of our smiths have not increased from the time Bill Moran stated them over 30 years ago are testament to the lack of dedication to the development of function.

In my estimation the ABS hierarchy has come to cherish the plumage while dismissing the quality of the bird itself.

There is more - much more, but this is probably enough to consider at this time.
 
this may be a bit off subject but how do i go about joining the abs? i have been forging for close to 2 years. im not ready to try to get a js stamp but i would likt to know where to look for info about the abs and thier requirements.
 
willy m said:
this may be a bit off subject but how do i go about joining the abs? i have been forging for close to 2 years. im not ready to try to get a js stamp but i would likt to know where to look for info about the abs and thier requirements.
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Willy, no offense but literally not 5 seconds on google typing in a search for "ABS Journeyman" brought up the exact information you are looking for, for heaven's sake.
 
Ed, that is great I would have loved to have met Bill.

So it seems your main concerns with the way the ABS has changed seems to be mostly in the lack of development, the standardizing with the recessed ricasso design as a common mark in the JS test knives. As an ABS Mastermsith yourself, have you ever judged a JS test and had the student show up with atleast 1 knife without a recessed ricasso, and passed? have you ever seen another smith pass with blades that did not have a recessed ricasso? You proved it can be done, so do you still champion that mission?
 
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