Ed Fowler

Tai, do you actually type the lyrics out or cut and paste them?

I've often said the craft is a journey and we're lucky to find people to help us and to walk with us down the path.
 
LOL Will,... That's my secret. :)

"I've often said the craft is a journey and we're lucky to find people to help us and to walk with us down the path."

I like your attitude too, comrade. :)
 
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"One Tin Soldier"
(The Legend of Billy Jack)
by Lambert-Potter

Listen, children, to a story
That was written long ago,
'Bout a kingdom on a mountain
And the valley-folk below.

On the mountain was a treasure
Buried deep beneath the stone,
And the valley-people swore
They'd have it for their very own.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

So the people of the valley
Sent a message up the hill,
Asking for the buried treasure,
Tons of gold for which they'd kill.

Came an answer from the kingdom,
"With our brothers we will share
All the secrets of our mountain,
All the riches buried there."

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

Now the valley cried with anger,
"Mount your horses! Draw your sword!"
And they killed the mountain-people,
So they won their just reward.

Now they stood beside the treasure,
On the mountain, dark and red.
Turned the stone and looked beneath it...
"Peace on Earth" was all it said.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away
 
"We start with high quality 52100 from 2 3/4 inch round stock for our students. I state this because the rate of reduction by forging plays a significant roll in the potential quality of the finished product."

could you explain what you mean by "rate of reduction by forging" ? do you mean that by forging, you are making it better.

or are you saying this because of the thermal cycling?

"potential quality"?
 
Per cent Reduction or Area

Original reduction area - Final area
___________________________________ X100
Original area

Without getting into technical stuff, I will simply state that the ductility of a piece of steel can be enhanced through working the steel at the proper forging temperature and methods for that steel. It is also possible to enhance the future performance qualities of the steel for a specific purpose through the nature of the thermal cycles included in the reduction.

It can be said that all steel is forged, this is correct, but it is actually rolled to shape in the mills because this is more economical. Rolling of steel requires higher temperatures than forging by a hammer where performance is our goal and not necessarily economy. By forging at lower temperatures, using many thermal cycles as possible we believe that we can further enhance the potential performance of 5160 and 52100 by forging at the lower temperatures, this reduces grain size, and ductility as any faults in the steel are elongated along the length of the blade.

If the steel is only forged down from the spine to the edge any faults present are distributed from spine to edge. This will reduce the potential of lateral strength where most blades are weakest.

The potential benefits are a result of proper forging as well as the thermal cycles. Like I stated earlier, the right forging methods and no temperatures over 1,725 f. Reduction ratio has a direct relation to fatigue properties when those that forge know what they are doing.

One experiment found that hammer forged stock was superior to press forged steel due to increased refining of the grain from the hammer.

To answer your question what we seek are the results of reduction ratio and thermal cycles working in harmony with the final heat treat and the projected use of the metal.

I hope this answeres your question. If not ask again.
 
Ed,

Starting with 2 ¼” stock is no problem and I assume as long as I forge at the temperature you stated in an earlier post this will produce the reduction you refer to.

After forging the shape of the blade they receive three 35 second quenches from critical in room temperature Texaco type A, then the usual three normalizing cycles. (2 flash, 1 full cycle to room temperature.
Click to expand...

Straight back to the forge after the 35 sec? Or is there a wait?

I don’t know what you mean by “2 flash”.

After forging we use a high tempering heat (988 f.), three cycles in 3 days.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I again don’t know what you mean here.

Test for chip
Click to expand...

How do you test for chip?

Daniel

Tai,

Please take your own advice and allow us to make knives the way we want to without telling us how stupid we are.
 
DWinkler said:
Ed,

Starting with 2 ¼” stock is no problem and I assume as long as I forge at the temperature you stated in an earlier post this will produce the reduction you refer to.



Straight back to the forge after the 35 sec? Or is there a wait?

I don’t know what you mean by “2 flash”.



Sorry, I again don’t know what you mean here.



How do you test for chip?

Daniel
Click to expand...

Daniel, yes, right back into the forge after the three post forging quenches. Back up to non-mag and quench three times in room temp oil.
By flash, I believe Ed will tell you to bring the blade up to non-mag and let it go through it's recalescence just back to dark, where it loses its color, and then back in the forge two times.
On the third cycle, all the way back to room temp.
After those cycles he will bring the blade up to 988 in his Paragon for a sub-critical anneal, cool back off with the oven over night, and he will do that three times.
Ed likes the #3. 4 being of little/no gain in performance - the law of diminishing returns.
I use an old sharpening steel that has been smoothed off and locked into a bench vise.
Flex the edge over the steel and drag it from choil to tip watching the edge fracture - or not.
After forging with Ed's methods, using large stock, and watching scale size, utilizing his post-forging methods, my 5160 and 52100 blades out-perform anything I had ever done previously.
 
"After forging with Ed's methods, using large stock, and watching scale size, utilizing his post-forging methods, my 5160 and 52100 blades out-perform anything I had ever done previously." Karl B. Andersen

Thanks Karl. :)
 
Tai Goo said:
"One Tin Soldier"
(The Legend of Billy Jack)
by Lambert-Potter

Listen, children, to a story
That was written long ago,
'Bout a kingdom on a mountain
And the valley-folk below.

On the mountain was a treasure
Buried deep beneath the stone,
And the valley-people swore
They'd have it for their very own.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

So the people of the valley
Sent a message up the hill,
Asking for the buried treasure,
Tons of gold for which they'd kill.

Came an answer from the kingdom,
"With our brothers we will share
All the secrets of our mountain,
All the riches buried there."

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

Now the valley cried with anger,
"Mount your horses! Draw your sword!"
And they killed the mountain-people,
So they won their just reward.

Now they stood beside the treasure,
On the mountain, dark and red.
Turned the stone and looked beneath it...
"Peace on Earth" was all it said.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away
Click to expand...

Tai, here's a good pic for your lyrics.
 

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Thanks Karl you saved me some typing.
The test for chip is just like Karl said, put enough pressure on the edge so you can see it flex, draw it along the edge from ricasso to tip, then the other side, then back again until it chips or I usually quit at 10 edge flexes, 5 right, 5 left. I believe that a blade that can stand 4 edge flexes will hold up in normal use without chipping.

Be sure and grind the part of the edge that has been flexed off of the blade or you will be selling a used blade that could chip after the next flex.

After the edge flexes we test for cut. (There is no reason to test for cut if the blade chips, it is a waste of time and rope, unless you are curious and this is not a bad thing to be). For the edge flex and cut tests I sharpen the blade on a 320 grit stone as this is the best edge I find for field work.

If the blade passes the edge flex and cut tests, I polish the blade to a mirror finish and etch in ferric chloride, 3 water to one part ferric chloride. Buff lightly and examine what the etch reveals. If the etch reveals a defective transition zone the blade is tested to destruction or goes into our seminar teaching blades. The process of etching all blades is what taught me how to heat treat with a torch. Immediate feedback is essential to learning.

As for the 988 f. temper - I used to heat to 1,400 f. Then started lowering the temperature one blade at a time and got to 988 f with no measurable loss in quality.
It may be that we could get away with a lower temperature, but this is as low as I have gone. The reason for these cycles is to insure that the blade and tang are soft and tough. These steels 5160 and 52100 can and will air harden, this cycle handles that variable adequately as far as we can determine.


SSheppard: The age old question is a forged blade superior?
I hope that this thread does not evolve into a which is best tirade.

I can state that I have not been able to achieve a blade of the quality I seek by any shortcuts.

I can state that all forged blades are not equal, nor are all stock removal blades equal. Many forged blades are not superior to many stock removal blades. As you read in this thread, there are many variables that influence the quality of the forged blade.

The most basic issue is the testing the maker uses to predict the performance qualities of his blades.

The main question is what is the blade for? Is it an art blade? Where and what for will it be used? What does the client expect and does he get what he expects.

My goal has been and continues to be to make a blade that will stand up to any emergency situation a man may find himself engaged in by a simple twist of fate.

This is why I feel the most significant question a client can ask a maker is how do you test your blades? Testing and communication are the main ingredients of what I consider an honest knife. Both maker and client know what they are selling and purchasing.

Over 15 years ago Rex and I discussed our goals.
We would pursue our goals of performance.
We would not seek trademarks or patents.
We would share all we learned in simple language that could be easily understood by those interested.

In this tread Daniel has taught me that we have not quite reached our goals of communication. Dan has not seen our DVDs, and this is a good test for the challenge of our ability to communicate. The written word is tough, the DVD shows and tells. There is still much more but this thread contains the basics.
 
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Thank you Ed and Karl.

I will make a procedure list based on my understanding of what we have discussed in this thread. After you have had a chance to review it please let me know if I need to make any changes. Then I will get started.

Daniel
 
Daniel,
Have you performed your tests yet? If you posted the results do you remember the thread? I'd like to see what you came up with.
Bob
 
Not yet.

Just after the time when this thread was active I had to get ready to go to the SHOT Show. Make new samples from my Winkler Knives II stock removal line. Now that that is past I will get back to regular work and hopefully do the test soon.

One of the others interested in this project sent me Ed's DVD's. I have watched the first and am now watching the second, making notes for later. Based on these and the discussions here I'll make a plan and post it here before I actually get started.

Daniel
 
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