Ed Fowler

I thought we were talkin about grain size here :D

For the record, the first 2000 knives I made were HTed with a torch . I now
have two big elec. HT furnaces but prefer to use my forge and judge temp by
color. But I'm having fun and my customers are happy :D
 
im a stock remover for the most part (i think i could mess things up more if i hit them with a hammer at this point )

so i will be workign with 52100 right from sheet as i got it from bob kramer
 
Boy this thread has gone all over the place. Maybe we can bring it back around to the original topic.
I've been a member of the ABS for 8 years. I didn't know a thing about the group before I joined other than they had a school I could go to to learn the basics of bladesmithing. If I had it all to do over again knowing what I know now about the group I would do it in a heartbeat! I have met some great folks, and made some very strong friendships along the way. I have learned a tremendous amount freely from many Master smiths. All the hammer-ins I have been to have been fantastic learning experiences.
I understand that the ABS has requierments for testing to obtain thier ratings of J.S and M.S and I accept that 100%, but not once has anyone in the group ever told me what kind of knives I should make.
The group has evolved since it started and I'm sure it will continue to do so in the future. The only way to be a part of it and make changes is....to be a part of it.
Mace
 
Without exception, every person I've dealt with that referred to themselves as ABS members was willing to share their experiences with me.

I joined the ABS this year. I suspect that those that know me will find that out of character. I have no desire or intention to pursue a 'stamp'. Really, the only common thread I share with the ABS is my passion for knives. I'll support them because - even if it was indirect in many ways - the organization's footprint has assisted me in my pursuit of this passion.
 
Well, I guess I should add some last input. My original direction was to get to asking about why Ed didn't much care for the "modern" ABS, yet never did anything to influence it otherwise especially being a member of such high esteem among certain circles, and yet still continued to use the positive PR of his MS rating.

I hope one day to join the ABS and get my JS and MS, mostly it's never really the organization, it's the members, while I have met people of both sides who are some of the greatest nicest and coolest people I have ever met, as with everything there's one in every crowd and they are usually the loudest, so are easy to spot.

Thanks, and I apologize if I caused a major $hit$torm, but then again most threads taigoo interjects on turn to $hit$torms.

RogerP, i'd like to buy you a beer someday, you fight the good fight, you others too you know who you are.
 
Sam Salvati said:
while I have met people of both sides
Click to expand...

Sam -- there are no 'sides'. The divisiveness stems from a handful that don't seem to realize that nonconformity can be just as much slavery as conformity can be. You know how I am - do I strike you as the 'boxed' fellow this rabble would lead you to believe?
 
I guess I mean by "sides", both the differing opinions on joining or not joining an organization. I don't see either side as an enemy to the other or that there is even any fight to fight, they are all knifemakers no matter what so are one and the same.

You are no boxed fellow, maybe a closet fellow :D
 
OK Dan:
We start with high quality 52100 from 2 3/4 inch round stock for our students. I state this because the rate of reduction by forging plays a significant roll in the potential quality of the finished product. Forging down from 1/4 inch stock may influence the finished product, but multiple quench has never failed to result in an improved product according to our performance testing. Please don't consider this a fudge factor, just want all the cards on the table. After forging the shape of the blade they receive three 35 second quenches from critical in room temperature Texaco type A, then the usual three normalizing cycles. (2 flash, 1 full cycle to room temperature. This event is very significant, we have never had a blade warp since we started using them.

After forging we use a high tempering heat (988 f.), three cycles in 3 days. You can drill or cut tangs with a hack saw on our finished blades.

For example a student just worked down a 9 inch X 2 3/4 inch round bar into about a 24 inch bar measuring about 1 1/4 X 1 &3/4 inches. He cut it in half and forged 10 blades averaging about 9" long including hidden tangs from the first half. This amount of reduction by forging produces very uniform stock as any inclusions (etc) are stretched along the flow of the blade. Not that we have found any in the stock we are presently using. Without digging out my slide rule I believe this may be at least a 35 point reduction by forging. Anyone who wants to do the math is welcome to add their calculations.

His blades measure a little over 1/4" at the spine and about 3/16 where the cutting edge will be. Most are in the tempering oven now but the one available to measure now that he hardened and tempered measures about 1/8" at the edge.

Before hardening we clean all hammer marks down to clean steel, then finish to a 220 grit before hardening. I find that dents and scratches in the blade during hardening tend to grow deeper and result in stress raisers or scratches that can show up in in the finished etched blade blade. In other words they can grow deeper during the heat treat, and or time. You have probably noticed this in single quenched blades also - scratches you were sure were gone, but when etched show up.

We leave the 220 grit finish blades a little oversize then harden the blades in Texaco Type A quenching oil preheated to 165 f., keep the part of the blade we want hardened in the oil until it quits creating smoke, (naturally you have to rock the blade to get the tip hard). We never heat the tang to critical, leaving it cool as possible, then sink it in the oil and let it (or them if hardening more blades) cool to room temperature. Once they cool to room temp. we stand them up and let them drain back into the oil. Then they go into the house hold freezer overnight. Three quenches in three days.

Some laugh at this step (freezer), but Rex gained two points on the RC scale on a sample after 4 hours in the freezer on a single quench specimen. I feel that time is a significant factor during thermal cycles. Most of what will happen happens pretty fast, but blades continue to change over time. This is one benefit in that the multiple quench seems to reduce the magnitude of change over what we hope is the life span of a blade.

This is because the short time at critical and hardening potential of multiple quench results in no measurable retained austenite in the hardened portion of the blade.

Remember: if you have reduced the grain size during your forging and pre hardening thermal cycles it can grow at lower temperatures so I would suggest that you quench the blades as soon as they show non-magnetic.

If your heat control on your salts is very accurate I would appreciate it if you would report any changes in the temperature the blades become non-magnetic through the subsequent quenches.

As a side note, we feel the volume of the steel above the hardening line influences the dynamics of the blade. This is inconclusive at this time, more experiments need to be done but something to keep in mind.

I temper the steel we are using now at 388 f. Take it up slowly in my Paragon, hold for 200 minutes, then let it cool down with the Paragon turned off until it reaches room temp. We temper three times, each cycle from Paragon to freezer, 3 times in there days.

Then grind about 1/32 off of the cutting edge, grind and sharpen and test for chip. If the blade chips I raise the tempering temperature 10 degrees and test again, repeat until the blade does not chip, then test for cut.
 
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Mr. Winkler, a friend of mine is a metallurgist at a well-known university in California. If you wish, I'd be willing to ask him to perform tests and microscopy on whatever pieces result from your experiment.
 
(Edited out because Tai says I take myself way too serious... and besides, I do tend to talk out of my ass)
 
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I think some of you guys might be taking yourselves way too serious.

None of this is going to prove anything!



Jesse James was a lad that killed many a man He robbed the Danville train He stole from the rich and he gave to the poor He'd a hand, a heart, and a brain Jesse was a man, a friend to the poor He couldn't see a brother suffer pain And with his brother Frank he robbed the Springfield bank And he stopped the Glendale train Poor Jesse had a wife, a lady all her life And three children, they were so brave But that dirty lettle coward that shot Mr. Joward Has laid ol' Jesse James in his grave It was Robert Ford, the dirty little coward And I wonder how he feels For he slept in Jesse's bed and he ate o' Jesse's bread But he laid Jesse James in his grave It was with his brother Frank that he robbed the Gallatin Bank An' carried the money from the town It was at that very place that they had a little chase For they shot ol' Captain Sheets to the ground Poor Jesse had a wife to morn for his life And three children, they were so brave But that dirty lettle coward that shot Mr. Joward Has laid ol' Jesse James in his grave They went to a crossing, not very far from there And there they did the same For the agent on his knees delivered up the keys To the outlaws, Frank an' Jesse James It was on a Wednesday night, not a star was in sight When they robbed the Glendale train Those people, they did say for many miles away It was robbed by Frank an' Jesse James Poor Jesse had a wife to mourn for his life And three children, they were so brave But that dirty lettle coward that shot Mr. Joward Has laid ol' Jesse James in his grave Then on a Saturday night, Jesse was at home Just talking with his family brave When Robert Ford came along like a thief in the night And laid poor Jesse in his grave Now, the people held their breath when they heard of Jesse's death They wondered how he came to die It was one of his own gang called little Robert Ford An' he shot Jesse James on the sly Poor Jesse had a wife who mourned for his life And three children, they were so brave But that dirty lettle coward that shot Mr. Joward Has laid ol' Jesse James in his grave Jesse went to his rest with his hand upon his breast And there are many who never saw his face He was born one day in the County of Clay And he came from a solitary race This song was made by Billy Gashade As soon as the news did arrive He said there's no one man with the law in his hand Could ever take ol' Jesse James alive Poor Jesse had a wife to mourn his life An' his children too, they were brave But that dirty little coward shot Mr. Howard An' laid Jesse James in his grave Oh, they laid poor Jesse in his grave, yes, Lord They laid Jesse James in his grave Oh, he took from the rich and he gave to the poor But, they laid Jesse James in his grave
 
tai
how so
im using a kiln and want to see if there is anything im leaving on the table that i can pick up for my razors
and to use salt pots to see how the rebound might help the HT
seems liek alot of good info for at least 2 PPL
adn maybe the tips and tricks help other makers push the heat treat to new levels
 
It's junk science.

... this just isn't the scientific community. :)
 
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Don Hanson III said:
For the record, the first 2000 knives I made were HTed with a torch . I now
have two big elec. HT furnaces but prefer to use my forge and judge temp by
color. But I'm having fun and my customers are happy :D
Click to expand...

I like your attitude Don. :)
 
Hey man, I do what works for me...

Tai, I like your attitude too but feel some folks just misunderstand you :)
 
Don, you must be pretty smart too,.. but I got to say,... man, you look like a cat with some kind of a melon rind on it's head.

I'm complicated. :D
 
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I know this will probably sound sappy to a lot of guys, but,... we really need to stick together "as individuals" and try to support each other in spite of our differences. If we want the custom knife industry to grow and get better for all of us, we can't be at each other's throats all the time. We can always find fault in the other guy,… but that only hurts ourselves in the long run.

We are each unique individuals and all have a lot to contribute.

It's time to bury the hatchet!

"Man In The Mirror"
(The inimitable MJ)

I'm Gonna Make A Change,
For Once In My Life
It's Gonna Feel Real Good,
Gonna Make A Difference
Gonna Make It Right . . .

As I, Turn Up The Collar On My
Favourite Winter Coat
This Wind Is Blowin' My Mind
I See The Kids In The Street,
With Not Enough To Eat
Who Am I, To Be Blind?
Pretending Not To See
Their Needs
A Summer's Disregard,
A Broken Bottle Top
And A One Man's Soul
They Follow Each Other On
The Wind Ya' Know
'Cause They Got Nowhere
To Go
That's Why I Want You To
Know

I'm Starting With The Man In
The Mirror
I'm Asking Him To Change
His Ways
And No Message Could Have
Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The World
A Better Place
(If You Wanna Make The
World A Better Place)
Take A Look At Yourself, And
Then Make A Change
(Take A Look At Yourself, And
Then Make A Change)
(Na Na Na, Na Na Na, Na Na,
Na Nah)

I've Been A Victim Of A Selfish
Kind Of Love
It's Time That I Realize
That There Are Some With No
Home, Not A Nickel To Loan
Could It Be Really Me,
Pretending That They're Not
Alone?

A Willow Deeply Scarred,
Somebody's Broken Heart
And A Washed-Out Dream
(Washed-Out Dream)
They Follow The Pattern Of
The Wind, Ya' See
Cause They Got No Place
To Be
That's Why I'm Starting With
Me
(Starting With Me!)

I'm Starting With The Man In
The Mirror
(Ooh!)
I'm Asking Him To Change
His Ways
(Ooh!)
And No Message Could Have
Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The World
A Better Place
(If You Wanna Make The
World A Better Place)
Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make A Change
(Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make A Change)

I'm Starting With The Man In
The Mirror
(Ooh!)
I'm Asking Him To Change His
Ways
(Change His Ways-Ooh!)
And No Message Could've
Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The World
A Better Place
(If You Wanna Make The
World A Better Place)
Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make That . . .
(Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make That . . .)
Change!

I'm Starting With The Man In
The Mirror,
(Man In The Mirror-Oh
Yeah!)
I'm Asking Him To Change
His Ways
(Better Change!)
No Message Could Have
Been Any Clearer
(If You Wanna Make The
World A Better Place)
(Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make The Change)
(You Gotta Get It Right, While
You Got The Time)
('Cause When You Close Your
Heart)
You Can't Close Your . . .Your
Mind!
(Then You Close Your . . .
Mind!)
That Man, That Man, That
Man, That Man
With That Man In The Mirror
(Man In The Mirror, Oh Yeah!)
That Man, That Man, That Man
I'm Asking Him To Change
His Ways
(Better Change!)
You Know . . .That Man
No Message Could Have
Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The World
A Better Place
(If You Wanna Make The
World A Better Place)
Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make A Change
(Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make A Change)
Hoo! Hoo! Hoo! Hoo! Hoo!
Na Na Na, Na Na Na, Na Na,
Na Nah
(Oh Yeah!)
Gonna Feel Real Good Now!
Yeah Yeah! Yeah Yeah!
Yeah Yeah!
Na Na Na, Na Na Na, Na Na,
Na Nah
(Ooooh . . .)
Oh No, No No . . .
I'm Gonna Make A Change
It's Gonna Feel Real Good!
Come On!
(Change . . .)
Just Lift Yourself
You Know
You've Got To Stop It.
Yourself!
(Yeah!-Make That Change!)
I've Got To Make That Change,
Today!
Hoo!
(Man In The Mirror)
You Got To
You Got To Not Let Yourself . . .
Brother . . .
Hoo!
(Yeah!-Make That Change!)
You Know-I've Got To Get
That Man, That Man . . .
(Man In The Mirror)
You've Got To
You've Got To Move! Come
On! Come On!
You Got To . . .
Stand Up! Stand Up!
Stand Up!
(Yeah-Make That Change)
Stand Up And Lift
Yourself, Now!
(Man In The Mirror)
Hoo! Hoo! Hoo!
Aaow!
(Yeah-Make That Change)
Gonna Make That Change . . .
Come On!
(Man In The Mirror)
You Know It!
You Know It!
You Know It!
You Know . . .
(Change . . .)
Make That Change.
 
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