F. Dick German made Sharpening Steels?

Spideyjg said:
I use all F Dick on western blades but an Idahone ceramic on Japanese. The multicut is my final step steel.
Dexter and I think some Victorinox don't have just grooves going heel to tip. Some are like fine files with circumferential grooves also. Bad juju those things.

Jim
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Hey Cool!!! We do have a guy who has used the F. Dick "Multi-Cut" model!! And believe me folks you actually have to use it to even begin to know what I'm talking about. I've heard nothing but "good" about those "IdaHone" ceramic sharpening tools and I'm most definitely going to look into maybe getting one. There is a company who makes ceramic sharpeners in a rod like a regular sharpening steel who uses a black ceramic which I've been told is really good stuff.

Now I do have a DEXTER super smooth sharpening steel that I usually take on hunting a fishing trips and I've had fairly good results with it but I've never tried any of their grooved units>> haven't tried any of the Victorinox grooved units either for that matter. I noticed on F. Dick's website that they now offer a pocket steel>> I'm sure going to look at getting one of those.
 
JD Spydo said:
Hey Cool!!! We do have a guy who has used the F. Dick "Multi-Cut" model!! And believe me folks you actually have to use it to even begin to know what I'm talking about. I've heard nothing but "good" about those "IdaHone" ceramic sharpening tools and I'm most definitely going to look into maybe getting one. There is a company who makes ceramic sharpeners in a rod like a regular sharpening steel who uses a black ceramic which I've been told is really good stuff.

Now I do have a DEXTER super smooth sharpening steel that I usually take on hunting a fishing trips and I've had fairly good results with it but I've never tried any of their grooved units>> haven't tried any of the Victorinox grooved units either for that matter. I noticed on F. Dick's website that they now offer a pocket steel>> I'm sure going to look at getting one of those.
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Mac made a half smooth, half, grooved black ceramic. IT was faily coarse for a ceramic. I have one and seldom use it. If the grooved ceramic chips it is toast.

The Idahone is made in a coarser black and a super fine white rode.

I run all oval steels, and the nearly flat Multi-Cut, because if you know how to use a round you will find the contact feedback is far better on oval or flat as the contact patch of edge and rod is larger.

Jim
 
I'm getting the clue that some of these newer ceramic sharpening rods which replicate conventional sharpening steels are probably going to ultimately replace the older sharpening steels that are made with hardened steel. From what I've gathered the ceramic materials are just getting better and better thus will eliminate the need for the ones made of steel. In a way I hope I'm wrong but at the rate things are changing I'm kind of seeing the writing on the wall so to speak.

However I'm sure I'll be using my F. Dick steels for some types of sharpening jobs for the foreseeable future. I'm seeing the science of metallurgy and ceramics change right before my eyes especially in the past 12 years or so. I'm willing to bet that in the next 20 years or so we will see a ceramic that might even be as hard as diamond be on the way.

One thing that I do find amazing and somewhat puzzling is how many people I've known over the years that have really super high quality sets of kitchen cutlery in their homes>> especially the German and high end Japanese stuff >> and they have sharpening steels that they got with these fancy sets of cutlery and it makes me almost laugh when I discover that virtually not one of the owners know how to use the sharpening steel at all. But for that matter it amazes me how very few people really know how to properly sharpen a knife at all either.
 
I've been looking some more at F. Dick's website and see that they have some nice looking diamond impregnated sharpening steels. I'm wondering if any of you have used any of F. Dick's diamond sharpening steels?

The F. Dick company seems to have a wide selection of knives and other tools for the restaurant and meat packing industries>> however I hear very little ever said about them here in the USA. But when I do actually hear anyone speaking of F. Dick's steels, knives or other tools I hear nothing but good about them. I think I'm going to check some of their knives out before the year is over.
 
The name has been something of a setback for the home consumer side of the market for them here in North America, but people who are serious enough about their tools not to be made to snicker about it have universal respect for them.

I've not personally used any of their diamond rods, as the cost of them when I last checked wholesale was quite high compared to the market norms.
 
I may have to infract you, B...you mentioned Dick, rod and tool in one post. Someone's gonna get a timeout. :p

(Just kidding, obviously...though it does lend itself to a bit of humor.)

"Arctic Fox" just sounds much more elegant. :thumbsup:
 
Their knives tend to be on the thicker side compared to other German makes.

I have their Premier Plus 9" chef and the handle is my favorite of any but it is a thick blade.

Jim
 
Spideyjg said:
Their knives tend to be on the thicker side compared to other German makes.

I have their Premier Plus 9" chef and the handle is my favorite of any but it is a thick blade.

Jim
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That wouldn't bother me at all because I have a nice TORMEK wet grinder if I need to remove a thick shoulder off any blade edge. As far as the one Brother who made a humorous gesture about the company's name I happened to ask a good friend of mine I do a lot of work with who is a "blue-blood" German and a very good guy too about that name. He said it's at least a semi-common surname over there in Germany. Also my late best friend who just died a couple of years back (and a real knife nut just like myself) had the birth name Richard but from the time we were little kids everyone called him "Dick" or "Dickey" when he was a kid but in later years most everyone called him Dick>> we didn't have a problem with it. I could care less what the company's name is I'm much more concerned about their overall quality and it all appears to be good to excellent and that's all I concern myself with.
 
I've used their oval diamond steel which I'm pretty sure is 600 grit, a bit too rough for me. I prefer a ceramic for touch ups, a bit slower and gentler. DMT make a 1200 grit diamond steel which would probably be pretty good. I totally agree with the comment about the knife handles being comfortable the best I've used for sure.
 
eKretz said:
You fellows might find this interesting:

https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2018/08/22/what-does-steeling-do-part-1/

Electron microscope photos of steeled edges.

Oh, and in "Ze Cherman" the word "dick" means thick.
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I really appreciate your contribution to both of these threads "eKretz". I really love that "ScienceofSharp" website it's one of the better education websites on knife related facts I've seen in a while. There is another one over at the other forum they have been talking about called knifenerds but this one you shared with us is better. I'm to the point to where I would like to see a super technical sub-forum here at BF. There is so much information available out there now I truly think BF ought to take a look at it.
 
Thank you for the compliment. Yes it's nice to be able to see things on such a scale. Definitely gives a far better idea of what is going on. I have been reading Todd's site (scienceofsharp) since he started it. Now and then we have some discussion over email, he is a smart guy.
 
Skimmed the research but seems to bear out the old adage that proper use of a steel keeps a working edge for a long time. Eventually the rod stops working and time to regrind.

I use very light strokes on blades as the finishing steps.
 
wootzblade said:
We've just completed our research on steeling, posted on the BESS forum
http://www.bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=368

Was done using F.Dick smooth (polished) and grooved (abrasive) steels
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH!! for putting that most interesting data on blade steeling up there for all of us to read and consider. I've printed if off for use as reference material and I'm most definitely going to discuss that information with others.

Hey I do have one question that I hope you can answer.. In many of these threads on sharpening steels, butcher steels ect >> they constantly make a point that most of these "sharpening steels are intended for blade steels that are mainly made with high carbon blades that also have a rather modest Rockwell hardness rating compared to many of these newer knives with supersteel blades that are much harder and have carbides that are very hard. OK my question is this>> I wonder if F. Dick and Isler ( or other makers of blade steels for that matter) are going to eventually make newer/better sharpening steels that will accommodate these newer/better blade steels?

Because I do believe that these newer/better blade steels are going to eventually overtake the market and probably cause all these other high carbon knives with lower Rockwell ratings to become obsolete.
 
I don't think so. Volume manufacturers are very unlikely to switch to exotic steels. They want ease of manufacturing and easy availability of steel in high volume. Not likely to happen with the exotic steels. They also don't want their knives to be difficult to sharpen for Jack and Jill Homemaker - who would likely complain loudly. Got to remember that not everyone is a knife nut - we are in the minority.
 
eKretz said:
I don't think so. Volume manufacturers are very unlikely to switch to exotic steels. They want ease of manufacturing and easy availability of steel in high volume. Not likely to happen with the exotic steels. They also don't want their knives to be difficult to sharpen for Jack and Jill Homemaker - who would likely complain loudly. Got to remember that not everyone is a knife nut - we are in the minority.
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Most likely your scenario is probably correct considering that most corporations anymore focus on profit rather than quality unfortunately for us the consumer>> but yes I can see what you're saying and no argument here at all.

But on the other hand there are snob type, high end stores like Williams Sonoma for instance that cater to yuppies and rich people who all like to have the biggest, best and what costs the most. And that market is not small like a lot of people may think>> and as long as average Joe Citizen has a credit card he will get in on the action too just to attempt to keep up with the rich Jones Family. And in that scenario I believe you will see some of these high end companies gravitate toward the newer/better blade steels. I could be wrong but I've seen similar scenarios play out just like that in the past.
 
Making a steel hard enough to work on high-hardness and high-carbide knives would be outrageously expensive, and those knives don't exhibit the same dynamics, anyhow. I don't see it being feasible, neither economically, nor practically. It would cost a ton and be mostly ineffective. It really has very little to do with companies caring more about profits...the hardness range selected for blades that benefit from steeling is almost universally deliberate. At a certain skill level, ease of honing trumps edge retention, so long as it's not outright awful and you're not cutting abrasive materials. Context dictates the ideal properties of the tool, and that includes maintenance parameters.
 
JD Spydo said:
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!! for putting that most interesting data on blade steeling up there for all of us to read and consider. I've printed if off for use as reference material and I'm most definitely going to discuss that information with others.

Hey I do have one question that I hope you can answer.. In many of these threads on sharpening steels, butcher steels ect >> they constantly make a point that most of these "sharpening steels are intended for blade steels that are mainly made with high carbon blades that also have a rather modest Rockwell hardness rating compared to many of these newer knives with supersteel blades that are much harder and have carbides that are very hard. OK my question is this>> I wonder if F. Dick and Isler ( or other makers of blade steels for that matter) are going to eventually make newer/better sharpening steels that will accommodate these newer/better blade steels?

Because I do believe that these newer/better blade steels are going to eventually overtake the market and probably cause all these other high carbon knives with lower Rockwell ratings to become obsolete.
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The super-hard and high-carbide knives are already covered, in the sense that ceramic and diamond rods handle what an 'ordinary' kitchen steel can't handle. High-hardness & high-carbide cutlery steels won't respond to simple 'realignment' of an edge as done with simpler kitchen stainless, which is inherently more ductile and is able to respond to being 'bent into shape' (this is what realignment is, essentially). Not to mention, the harder stuff isn't as likely to roll at the edge in the first place, like simpler kitchen cutlery, and instead will 'wear' by other means, such as by abrasion and maybe chipping (micro-chipping) as well. At that point, restoring the edge on the harder blades is all about honing the edge back into shape, i.e., metal removal. And the diamond & ceramic rods will do all that's needed, for that.
 
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Ceramic rod vs traditional grooved (ribbed) steels

I have re-visited Todd's SEM study on steeling https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2018/08/22/what-does-steeling-do-part-1/

Unlike traditional honing rods that are mainly effective on mainstream blades, ceramic rods have shown effective in "steeling" high hardness vanadium steel blade - S30V in Todd's study. A quote:

"Traditional honing rods do not have sharp protrusions, and the metal swarf found on the surface is observed as flattened or smeared patches of metal. This type of metal removal (or transfer) is generally termed adhesive wear. Adhesive wear occurs at points of very high pressure that occur when the contact area is very small.

Ceramic “steels” have become common and are often preferred to traditional ribbed knife steel. Although these ceramics are composed of micro-sized sintered grains, the surfaces are relatively smooth and do not display a “grit-like” texture. These rods appear to remove metal predominantly via adhesive wear rather than abrasive wear (grinding)."

The following 2 SEM images taken by Todd are of the same carbon blade steeled with a grooved (ribbed) steel as compared to "steeled" with ceramic rod

SEM_grooved_steel03.jpg

Grooved steeling

SEM_ceramic_rod.jpg

Ceramic rod steeling

Though they look quite similar, showing an improved apex and micro-bevel, the traditional steel does it cleaner, while the ceramic rod creates scuffing on both sides of the edge - and where the presentation cut is important, traditional steel is preferred.

But this discussion should not diminish importance of gentle smooth steeling - smooth steeling have shown especially good sharpness recovery on knives of HRC 58+
Softer knives of HRC 55-56 perform better with more frequent grooved (abrasive) steeling, while harder knives of HRC 57-58 perform better with more of smooth steeling (of common meat professional knives it is SWIBO).
E.g meat plant operators smooth-steel after every 10 cuts about 10 times before they use a grooved steel.
There is the best ratio of smooth-to-grooved steeling for a given hardness, e.g. for HRC 55-56 knives it is 10:1, while for HRC 58 it may be 20:1.
 
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