Fencing is a MARTIAL ART not a SPORT

Joined
Jan 31, 2001
Messages
22
There are many fencers today who claim that they are very good at the sport of fencing. The first thing I would tell them is that fencing is not a sport, it is a martial art. Yes fencers compete for points and that is an aspect of a sport. But I think that "sporting" rules and whippy blades are depriving many competitors of the true martial aspect of fencing.

A big problem has been the whippy blades that foilists and saber fencers have been using for a number of years. The foil, which is not a duplicate of real weapon, is a thrusting sword. You are supposed to thrust the foil into your opponent, not whip, hack or slash. When I have gone and watched competitions the past few years I see foilists whipping their blades to attack and score points. I know that is the nature of the sport, many times you can score more points by whipping the blade than actually thrusting it. I have seen fencing instructors teach Saber defenses for foil whipping attacks. WHAT? A foilist making a number 5 head parry? In classical and true foil fencing there are no head parries.

Saber blades have been made to be quite whippy. I have seen saber fencers attack their opponents bell guards hoping that their whippy blades will wrap around the bell guard and score them a point. I have met saber fencers who refuse to dry fence, they only do electrical with whippy blades. If they dry fenced, they would be squashed. These people are trained to smash their blades into a bell guard. COME ON! If you smashed your blade into a bell guard, your opponent has just seized the advantage over you. I know some people might say, "Well its just a sport, people don't fight with swords anymore, we don't need to practice classical fencing." If you believe this then you are kidding yourself.

You could never whip your thrusting weapon in real life, as the blade has to be stiff in order for you thrust. In real life, you would never purposly crash your saber blade into your opponent's bell guard on purpose. Fencing should mimic real sword play, because classical fencing was developed to mimic real sword play. My fencing and Savate (French boxing) instructor was from France. He actually fought real sword duels in Italy during the 1930s and one knife duel in France. He survived and won many of these duels, he also lost one. He brought nothing but realism to our training. People don't duel with swords anymore, but the concepts of fencing, timing, countertime, distance, the stop-hit, hand before foot etc...etc are useful in all martial practices. Don't believe me? Take your straight fencing thrust and remove the blade and what do you have? You have a straight strike. James Figg the godfather of English Boxing was a master fencer. He adapted the principles of the straight lunge and thrust into straight punching and the footwork from fencing into boxing footwork. The best aspect of fencing is that it teaches you to be non-telegraphic. Your hand must always move before your foot and your blade must always land before your foot touches the ground. I was taught to adapt to this punching and striking because it makes it non-telegraphic. Want proof? Bruce Lee was a fencer in college, he adapted many fencing concepts into his Jeet Kune Do philosophy. I suggest that all fencers read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do because it is littered with fencing concepts and how they can be used in unarmed combat. Bruce Lee's quickness came from his methods of being non-telegraphic. His hand always shot out before his foot and his hand always landed on his opponent before his foot landed. If anyone is interested my friend Mauser has posted some of his thoughts on fencing and knife fighting in the Common Sense Self-Defense discussion under REVERSE GRIP KNIFE FIGHTING. We have some similar thoughts on the subject.

Fencing is a martial art and should be practiced as such. At my salle, unarmed combat and fencing were taught hand in hand. If you whip the blade, you are not fencing.
 
So totally agree. Remember, the idea is "what if it had a sharp point?" While many think that the foil was only training for the epee, remember that the epee was supposed to be training for the "duel". If I remember correctly, before the development of the mask, all us western fencers could expect to be blind in at least one eye.

I have always thought that training to use the "western three" as live blades was often overlooked because of those "sportsman" in our ranks.

Oh, and by the way, I own a very nice custom Kolichmarde that I had balanced and weighted to approximate my #4 foil. And it dances!!

PS--What do you think of those "Small Swords" being sold by Paul Chen? I have all three, and they all are nicely balanced and wickedly pointed. However, they only have 30 inch blades!!

------------------
Watakushi Wa Shinajin Desu
DeathDancer

[This message has been edited by DeathDancer (edited 02-02-2001).]
 
I took fencing in college. One semester only but I was pretty good, best in the class except for a guy on the fencing team. Our instructor told us that if we wanted to learn some good points of fencing, we should watch old kung fu movies. For exacly the reasons you have mentioned. One of my fraternity brothers was a black belt in Tang Soo Do. He would lose competitions on points when it was clear that had it been a "real" fight he would have won. The same was true in my fencing class. It was possible to win on points, but a real deul would have had a different outcome. If I could find an instructor who taught "real duel" fencing, I might take it up again.
 
PBPC: Try this as a first sentance instead:

There are many karateka today who claim that they are very good at the sport of karate.

Of course you could insert just about any MA name - too many people forget what these things were invented for...

------------------
"..it is foolishness and endless trouble to cast a
stone at every dog that barks at you.."
 
Before I say ANYTHING in this thread let me point out that I seek only intelligent debate and intend to deliver ZERO flames. That caveat out of the way...
biggrin.gif


Let me use as illustration IPSC. For the "non gun people" among us, this is the International Practical Shooting Confederation.
This started out as a Martial Art. It's sole intention was to create a more realistic means of learning and training in the use of firearms for self defense.
Over the years, the guns began to "morph" into game pieces. Impractical and sometimes improbable pistols with laser sights, red dot sights, holographic sights, huge compensators, ridiculous grips and holsters, etc. Eventually the guns became so specialized that they were useless for any purpose other than IPSC competition.

Kinda like the foil or epee'.

I firmly believ that a "fencer"/"Duelist"/"Foilist", whatever name you wish to apply who has trained with nothing but the "sports equipment" foils and epee's has learned anything of value for true application.
( Okay, at this point I'll interject that I don't really believe that I'll ever "need" to know how to win a sword fight. )

There are things that can be done with a foil that can never be done with a full blade rapier. (Such as I use.)
However, you might be surprised to learn that you CAN "whip" with a rapier. The results with a sharp would be quite upsetting to the recipient.

By it's nature, the rapier being much heavier is much SLOWER. I've seen people fight epee against rapier and the rapier always loses. ALWAYS! You just can't get the blade to move as fast as the epee.

Fencing will never mimic real sword play. The nature of Man is to WIN, and man will use the tool to it's fullest advantage to do so. Trying to restrict yourself to tactics only practical with live steel would be an exercise in frustration.

PBPC, I don't know where you're from, but if you're near Arkansas, or ever travel THROUGH Arkansas, I offer you an open invitation to come out and give the real deal a try. It will offer you a LOT of surprises and I promise you a VERY fun day!
biggrin.gif
Email me if you'd like to give it a shot some time.

DeathDancer.
Our group has been in existance for over two years, everyone still has all the eyes they started with, and we've suffered no injury that couldn't be fixed with a bandaid or two.
wink.gif
(I started OUT with only one eye.)

BTW, thanks for the word on the small swords, I've been wanting one, but was curious as to the handling characteristics.

It IS true though that there is a lot of cross over between fence and unarmed MA.
Especially when you take into consideration Rapier and Main Gauche.
Check out Espada y Daga in FMA

Trevor, (boy, I've got something for everyone don't I? LOL)

I don't forget where they came from, but the branch is awfully far from the roots in many cases. Such is the case of Foil Fencing as opposed to actual live steel dueling.

Opposing viewpoints are welcomed and all my comments made in the spirit of friendly debate for the purpose of mutual education.
(This can be a touchy subject.)



------------------
Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
 
Ken,

One thing that does make a difference in epee vs Rapier is that epee training is actually for the "formalized duel". Consequently, there are certain restrictions concerning uses of the body, areas actually allowed hit, and types of hit allowed (first blood, etc.). It is structured according to the code used and the agreement of the parties and seconds involved.

As for the Paul Chen Small Swords, if I was to choose amoungst the three, it would be the Scottish Court Sword. It looks and feels very traditional (nice brass work), and as I said, very nicely balanced. The steel is first rate and if you wanted, you could put an edge on it that would actually cut!! Still, all three have the 30 inch only blade.

Was looking at Atlanta Cutlery and see that they have come out with a Small Sword, which has a blade length of 37 inches. While not happy with a lot of their ethnic stuff, thoughts are leaning toward getting one to see how it balance and is constructed.

As to not loosing any eyes, paraphrase: "God looks after Drunks, Fools, and Swordsman." I'll still wear my mask.


------------------
Watakushi Wa Shinajin Desu
DeathDancer
 
I fenced for 3 years at the collegiate level. I earned a spot on the competition saber team my first year. At first it was new, fun, and exciting. But after the initial "honeymoon" of the first year -- after I got proficient at the footwork, handwork, attacks, defenses, and rules -- the fun level declined drastically.

Before I tried it, I had always thought that fencing was a form of bladed combat practice. Once I got into it, I was disappointed to find that the conduct of fencing bouts had very little to do with combat at all.

My non-standard attacks were either frowned upon or earned me a yellow card. Though I was not trying to be malicious in my bouts, I was trying my best to win and beat the other guy. In doing so, I once (not preplanned but happened in a moment of excitement) attacked an opponent's head with the guard of my weapon; he could have used a standing 8-count afterwards. I chopped at another guy's shoulder with an overhand swing; left a deep bruise. I attacked a third opponent by running at him with the point of my weapon aimed at his chest; broke my saber on his chest.

Yes, I executed the more traditional attacks that I had trained for most of the time, but when I came up with unorthodox methods on the fly, I received negative scrutiny for using "barbaric" tactics. I know many competition fencers will be appalled by my methods but I believe that in real bladed combat, my unorthodox attacks would have worked well with a live blade.

To the best of my knowledge, fencing at one time was practiced with semi-blunted live blades, full speed but attacks were either slightly misdirected or held back somewhat so that no major injuries occured. Praticioners self-acknowledged hits, but that was about the only gentlemanly aspect of it.

If fencing went back to a more realistic practice and got rid of the electric wet-noodle weapons, I'd probably return to it. Hell, they could even keep the electronic sensor gizmos to determine hits, but at least make the weapons realistic.


------------------
Danny
aka "kuma575"
 
...I received negative scrutiny for using "barbaric" tactics. I know many competition fencers will be appalled by my methods but I believe that in real bladed combat, my unorthodox attacks would have worked well with a live blade.

Danny, you've said it all.
Your "unorthodox attacks" DO work quite well in live steel dueling. Of course, the other fellow is doing the same sort of thing also.

...To the best of my knowledge, fencing at one time was practiced with semi-blunted live blades, full speed but attacks were either slightly misdirected or held back somewhat so that no major injuries occured. Praticioners self-acknowledged hits, but that was about the only gentlemanly aspect of it.
You've described exactly what my club does, and you're right. The acknowledgement of the hit is about the ONLY gentlemanly aspect of the "game."

While we're all good friends, and we have a great deal of trust in each other to sacrifice the point for safety if need be, it's always interesting to watch two duelists start the duel, smiling and friendly, and in a matter of a moment or two be transformed into two grim faced combatants.
It's a thrill you'll never get from Sport fencing.



------------------
Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
 
I work at a large university, and have access to the excellent library. One of the interesting books I've found is a treatise on swordfighting written in ( as I recall ) the seventeenth century by one John Silver, who was an English weapons master. It was quite interesting; this was at a time when the long Spanish and Italian blades and fighting styles were coming into vogue, and Silver had nothing but ridicule for these weapons. He favored shorter, heavier blades, that could be used both for thrusting and cutting. I found some interesting paralells between Silver and Mushashi; both claimed that the best battlefield weapon was the halberd! ( Naginata, in Japan )
Generally, as you introduce "sporting" aspects into martial activity, you decrease it's combat effectiveness. Watch an "Olympic" Tae Kwon Do match-pitiful.
 
Hi Bikewer,
Welcome to BFC!

Silver's book has merit, and is one of the few widely available (english language) period texts.
Keep in mind however that the overwhelming drive behind Silver's writing was national pride. A desire to elevate the English style (Never known for developing a serious "style" of it's own.) over the MASSIVELY respected and much vaunted Spanish school.
Sadly, the true depth of the Spanish school of rapier is probably lost forever to history. We'll never really know what the "Mysterious Circle" really was and therefore we're missing the keystone that the Spanish style was built upon.
I have to admit, this is the first time I've seen someone compare Silver with Musashi, but I'll "give" you the point on the
Halberd/naginata comment. Of course, considering that there was already widespread use of artillery and small arms on the battlefield of Silver's day, I think he missed the boat on "best weapon."

You're absolutely right in your comments on turning an MA into a sport though.
Other great examples are;
IPSC shooting
Olympic Tae Kwon Do *as you mentioned*
JUDO! (a sport invented AS a sport, but based on Jiu Jitsu)
Fencing
Even Archery!
I've competed at pro levels in Archery and coached my wife to an Arkansas State Championship win, but the rigs we use for competition bear NO resemblance to the tools we hunt with.

Once again, WELCOME!
biggrin.gif



------------------
Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
 
Another one is "combat" shooting. ( I think someone brought this up in another thread )
Been a PO for 30 years, I was around when so called "practical" shooting started up, as a reaction to the common police training practices of the day. Good idea- but look what's happened in the name of competition; "race" guns, silly holster rigs, climbing ropes, etc. Fortunately, there are some good, practical training programs available. One department sets up shooting scenarios based on actual shooting incidents that thier officers have been involved in.
 
Ken, don't forget that Musashi mentions firearms as advantageous in certain situations, but still considers the Naginata (not really that close to a halberd, but for most it's a moot point) one of the most efficient field combat (I.E. melee) weapons.

It's likely that Silver held the same position. Remember, in the seventeenth century they didn't have Colts or Remingtons. Guns of any sort were clumsy affairs, not suited to close quarters for more than one shot. They also tended to lose accuracy rapidly with increasing range.

------------------
Life often sucks, but always remember: God is good, and arrows are reusable.

~~~~ ###-------> ((() ) )

A country boy can survive.
 
Well Silver had far less reason to discount firearms than did Musashi. Remember, Musashi lived in the 1100s and Silver wrote his book "Paradoxes of Defense" in 1599. The state of firearms had advanced significantly in the intervening 500 or so years.
biggrin.gif


I'm really fairly reluctant to lean very heavily on Silver's writing as a reference.

I feel it's important to remember that "Paradoxes of Defense" was published in 1599, but that book really didn't give ANY significant instruction whatsoever in swordsmanship. Silver seemed only to want to disparage the rapier.
His "Brief Instructions Upon My Paradoxes of Defense" which was his actual attempt at expressing his TECHNIQUE wasn't published at all until 1898 or 99. Almost 300 years later.
Apparently no one wanted to hear what George thought at the time?
biggrin.gif


This isn't really surprising considering that he wanted to revert BACK to earlier sword styles that evolution had already seen fit to send the way of the dodo.
The two "books" are an interesting read, and very insightful into the mind of the British Imperialist mentality of that time, but it's not much by way of weapons instruction or even accurate reference.

I'll save my disagreement with you on the effectiveness of the period's firearms for another time and place, it's not at all blade related.
biggrin.gif


We can take it to email if you want though?
(or discuss it here in a seperate thread if Robert doesn't mind?)


------------------
Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
 
Correction Mr. Cook...

Musashi lived at the end of the Momoyama period and into the early part of Edo when Tokugawa took power in 1600...he died around 1645 if I remember correctly.
 
Mr. Marotz,

Well I'll tell you what. I was all set to come back in here and tell you you were full of horse feathers, and then went and checked elsewhere on the net. (good thing!)
biggrin.gif

You're absolutely right and I don't remember where I got the earlier date from, but I was pretty sure of it!
Thanks for the correction and I guess that pretty much nullifies that particular point in my post. (oops!)
Thanks again, and
PLEASE, call me Ken.
smile.gif


------------------
Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
 
In his own Preface to the Book of Five Rings, Musashi states that it is 1643. Although I believe he would have written it as the Nineteenth year of Kan-ei (does that sound right Robert). The end of the book (at least in my translation) is dated 12 May, 1645. Edwin Reischaur's forward in the translation of Yoshikawa's novel based on Musashi's life (wow, that's a mouthfull. I have to learn Japanese) states that Musashi died in 1645.
 
I don't have any books in front of me at the moment but if I remember right, kan'ei period started in 1624, so +19 would be 1643, so yeah I think you're correct. Am not positive though. Not that big a deal anyways really.

Shinryû.

 
I grew up watching Zorro and knight movies. I always thought sword fighting would be cool. I've been sport fencing for a couple of years now. It seemed obvious to me that from the begining epee was much closer to actually duelling than foil is. Foil has gotten away from that partly to be a different sport than epee. And, when you think about it, why have it if it's just epee with a lighter blade. The result is some of the non-martial art aspects of modern foil. You see the struggle of the evolution in the constant rule changes in such basic things as what constitutes an attack, and right of way.
But, this is the natural result of trying to turn any deadly activity into a sport. Few people nowdays will participate in a sport which uses the shedding of blood as the way you keep score. Comments posted here about the evolution of "practical shooting" sports are a good example of how things evolve when made into a sport. That's just reality. Even with the oriental martial arts. When was the last time you saw a bare knuckle professional full contact karate match with death blows, eyes gouges, and joint breaking allowed?
They still have blood duels with sabers in Germany if any of you are interested in really trying it out.
A footnote to the whippy blade in foil- the French national foil team has changed to stiff foil blades only. The reason is that with the proper training and technique you can flick better with a stiff blade than with a whippy blade; in foil anyway. The advantage to the stiff blade flick is that it stays on target; the whippy blade tends to whip from side to side, taking you off target.

------------------


[This message has been edited by uncle (edited 03-02-2001).]

[This message has been edited by uncle (edited 03-03-2001).]
 
Back
Top