Finally Breaking 100 BESS—Thoughts & Feedback Welcome

Diemaker said:
The cutting action of loose abrasives is totally different than fixed and works much better over a larger surface
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I'm not arguing and will try some REAL slurry on some medium and finer stones for larger surfaces
but
my Norton 220 grey water stone , which says in their literature is silicon carbide , is VERY friable . . . I mean we are talking stupid amounts of loose abrasive in no time with no effort to make slurry .

I have NEVER been able to make it actually cut material away at a decent rate on alloys it should be working well with (VG 10 , XHP , etc ) , even to just smooth out the side of a knife I have taken to the 36 grit belt sander , let alone reprofile etc a couple degrees shallower angle.

I ALWAYS reach for my Shapton Pro White 220 which cuts circles around the Norton slurry master.
I love the other three Nortons and get along just fine with them.

The Norton 220 . . . only good for a door stop .
I'm lost :confused:

EDIT TO CLARIFY :
The Shapton 220 I mentioned in a post above is for the Edge Pro and is 6 in x 1 in and I would put "Shapton" in parentheses (and should be Sharpton GLASS ) because it is so much different from my full size Shapton Pro 220 bench stone which is around 10 in x 3 in ; the former gets soft fast and the latter is much less friable and cuts super well and doesn't dish hardly at all.
 
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Jeffbird,
When I sharpen a knife under 100 it only stays ultra sharp for the first or second use. If I test a knife (Shun tested) that has been sharpened to sub 100 it is usually around 150 after the first use, depending on what it was used for. I will say this about that... the sharper your knife is to start, the longer it will stay sharp. The late Vadim from Australian Knife Grinders discussed this in his "Knife Deburring" book. Also, if I steel the knife on a smooth steel I can keep said knife in the 150 range for several weeks, stopping takes it back under 100 unless you let the edge get dull or damaged. All this depends on the steel of course.
But I gotta say, there is something deeply satisfying about cutting pretty much anything with an ultra sharp blade.
Al
 
A few years ago, I started using a straight razor. A low cost high magnification microscope that plugs into a laptop was invaluable in learning how to produce and check highly refined, smooth, polished edges.

For you chasing highly refined knife edges, one of those high magnification microscopes might be a useful tool. Mine was under $40. An example screen shot of a well done straight razor edge is below.

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Here is where the microscope can help.

The first photo is off 800 grit. The second photo is off a 12,000 grit stone. Note, not all scratches were removed from lower grits. So, the razor went back down to a lower grit and then worked back up as shown above. Those tiny scratches cause the razor to catch and not shave smoothly. A well done straight razor edge is very comfortable because the edge is so smooth and even in addition to being sharp.

Anyway, thought it might be helpful for you chasing the ultimate knife edge.

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Don't get hung up looking at how well your bevels are polished, they don't cut anything. It looks like all you did with the 12k stone was polish the bevel without refining the apex, I see this a lot with my own sharpening. Apexes are fragile and easily harmed when sharpening IME. Microscopes are good for a side view and a BESS tester is good for showing how the apex is doing, unfortunately they don't always agree.
 
Yes, the bottom photos were in my early days practicing with an old razor. The key lesson is to make sure each step is finished before moving to the next step.

Concur the polish of the bevel is not important, but the deep scratches that go to the apex leave small nicks on the apex that catch skin or tug a whisker before it is cut.

A smooth apex such as the top photo, a more recent effort, produces a smooth shave. The difference is noticeable in the feel on the face.
 
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jeffbird said:
the deep scratches that go to the apex leave small nicks on the apex
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I think many of those nicks and scratches are from the burr getting caught between the stone and bevel, tearing it off, chipping the apex, and scratching the bevel as it is pushed along between the stone and bevel. When I switched to edge trailing strokes those stray scratches and chips virtually disappeared.
 
jeffbird said:
the polish of the bevel is . . . important
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Do some carving or chiseling in very hard wood .
Trim your fingernails with your edges .
One may find all that is more controllable and takes less horse power when the bevels are smooth , nay , polished .
I trim a lot of plastic , think empty alcohol bottle like plastic .
I trim hard and soft rubber (putting denatured or mineral oil on the blade and on the work) , this too goes better and leaves a polished "professional" looking surface on the work if my blades have the same .
Try it . . . I'll wait . . .
 
Wow, none of those activities are how I use knives. If that is your primary uses, doubtless you use the edge best for the task.

As noted above, I do use highly refined edges in the kitchen where they are helpful. My wife occasionally complains they are “too sharp,” which makes me smile just a little.

For my edc, a 325 grit and quick strop is far more useful. For skinning hogs and deer, a coarser edge is far superior to a highly polished edge both in cutting ability and edge retention.

So different edges are best suited to different tasks. I do enjoy testing different edges and stones and reading about other’s results.
 
jeffbird said:
Here is where the microscope can help.

The first photo is off 800 grit. The second photo is off a 12,000 grit stone. Note, not all scratches were removed from lower grits. So, the razor went back down to a lower grit and then worked back up as shown above. Those tiny scratches cause the razor to catch and not shave smoothly. A well done straight razor edge is very comfortable because the edge is so smooth and even in addition to being sharp.

Anyway, thought it might be helpful for you chasing the ultimate knife edge.

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If smooth edges make for smooth shaves how do you explain a coticule edge?
 
jeffbird said:
Wow, none of those activities are how I use knives. If that is your primary uses, doubtless you use the edge best for the task.

As noted above, I do use highly refined edges in the kitchen where they are helpful. My wife occasionally complains they are “too sharp,” which makes me smile just a little.

For my edc, a 325 grit and quick strop is far more useful. For skinning hogs and deer, a coarser edge is far superior to a highly polished edge both in cutting ability and edge retention.

So different edges are best suited to different tasks. I do enjoy testing different edges and stones and reading about other’s results.
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That has been my experience also, edges are task specific.
 
garry3 said:
If smooth edges make for smooth shaves how do you explain a coticule edge?
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I tried coticules for a while and never understood what was so appealing. They never achieved the sharpness, at least for me, that I do with Arks or synthetics. I’ll rummage around and see if I saved a photo of a coticule edge. The coticule edge looks more rounded to me, vaguely like a convex edge which probably why it feels so smooth on the face.

These days, the edge is touched up every two or three weeks on a Dan’s hard Ark with mineral oil, then a Black, the finished on a translucent. Yes, I know Dan says his black is his densest/finest. My translucent is denser than my black on the scales. The ultimate test is my face and the translucent won as the finisher. The difference between a black and translucent is slight, but there is a small difference.
 
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jeffbird said:
So different edges are best suited to different tasks. I do enjoy testing different edges and stones and reading about other’s results.
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AGREED .
I conceded that .
I have never skinned anything in my life ; though I eat the hell out of some beasts ; tried vegetarian for nearly a decade . For hard core sports I do not recommend it / good for sedentary contemplative life . . . I suppose . . .

aaannnnyway
I was mearly recommending TESTING ones "sharp" edge on those materials as a proof of which cuts best and with less effort .
Many of the materials I cut on a near daily basis , I find , are more "fun" to cut with really sharp edges , sorry , polished edges .
Every time I go toothy , which at one time I went so far as to have two identical Cold Steel fixed blades side by side on my belt at work ; one 400 (I think I tried more coarse also, down to 220) grit stropped and one mirror hair whittling . . . . both crappy old 4116 steel (which I get along with just fine/never broke one yet) . . . (((I guess magnification doesn't tell all)))

the toothy just picked up fibers, and kept them in the "teeth" , did not slide through the work as easy and had less control for push cuts when I was attempting to refine some work = CARVING .

bottom line FOR ME , can't push cut with a saw .
When I want to slice and trim I reach for a knife.
When I want to saw I reach for a saw (cross cut or rip )

PS : curious what edge geometry failed to hold a useful edge for skinning when polished ?
I go back to those old Cliff Stamp vids of endless carpet cutting with acute edges .

Edit to change "cut" to "slice".
 
I was just talking with Cody about this, he likes polished for dressing animals. Hitting a bone would probably do less harm to a toothy edge and be easier to stone out in the field.

I always find it funny how much our preferences vary for doing the same thing in all things related to knives.
 
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Skinned, quartered, removed back straps ect, on my elk and did half my partners without a touch up.
White paper no 2 steel. I'm not doing that with a polished edge.
 
My bud is an avid hunter. He loved the polished skinner I sharpened last year. Said it slid through two deer effortlessly.
In the book “knife Deburring “, the late Vadim had meat processing plants evaluate what type of edge worked better for butchering, toothy or refined. Refined won… The cutters stated they were able to be more precise with their cuts, it caused less fatigue and the knives stayed sharp longer.
Does anyone know of any other scientific tests on the two edges, smooth vs toothy?
 
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I started using the Tormek T8 with 600 grit diamond wheel about 2 year ago. I wanted better consistency and a better cutting edge on the folding and small fixed blades I sharpen. My results have been nothing short of impressive and my customers seem to really enjoy it too. My goal with the tormek was to produce a fine toothy edge with good polish, this offers better cutting performance and edge longevity.

While I have used several low and high speed polishing wheels from hard paper to leather and felt, etc. I still find hand stropping to be superior when finishing an edge from my tormek. For me, 6 600 grit i can get the burr small enough that hand finishing works. Obviously, this might be more difficult with coarser finishes.

Sharpness is not always about how fine the abrasive is but how well you have created the edge and how CLEAN the apex is. This will always beat trying to make the edge finer in hopes of greater sharpness. As I like to tell people, your final sharpness starts at your first stone.

As for the bess. I had the original tester and while useful, was also flawed and could be "tricked" with different edge finishes. I know the device has changed a bit but I would just keep that in mind while chasing sharpness.
 
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