1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

  2. Week 25 of the BladeForums.com Year of Giveaways is live! Enter to win a Spyderco Manix 2

    Click here to enter the drawing for your chance to win a Spyderco Manix 2 , Bladeforums.com swag or memberships!
    Be sure to read the rules before entering, and help us decide next week's giveaway by hitting the poll in that thread!

    Entries will close at 11:59PM Saturday, June 22 ; winners will be drawn on Sunday @ 5pm on our Youtube Channel: TheRealBladeForums. Bonus prizes will be given during the livestream!

    Questions? Comments? Post in the discussion thread here

Finally got the new article done!

Discussion in 'Shop Talk - BladeSmith Questions and Answers' started by Kevin R. Cashen, Jun 29, 2006.

  1. Kevin R. Cashen

    Kevin R. Cashen

    Sep 9, 2003
    Aha! I finally finished it! I have been working on this forging article forever, the last catch was some coding quirks I didn't understand but I at least got it where I want it for I-explorer. You mozilla users, I am sorry, it is readable but doesn't like smaller window sizes.

    For some time I have wanted to do an article that addresses how forging really works, or more importantly how it doesn't, one that would answer the tired old forging versus stock removal question once and for all.

    This is not to promote my web site or my products, but just another informative article that I hope can be a resource to point folks to when they are confused by all the bad information floating around. It has plenty of graphics and is meant to be understandable by just about anybody.

    Anyhow if folks would like to look it over and give me some idea if it is simple enough to understand or if I left anything out, I would appreciate it.

    It is called "Forging, once and for all!" on my Articles page:

    Cashenblades.com Articles page
  2. mete

    mete Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 10, 2003
    Kevin the myth killer strikes again !!!
  3. Burchtree

    Burchtree KnifeMaker & Moderator Moderator

    Mar 15, 2002
    I'm going to read that at work -- can't wait. :D

    By the way, that's the type of info I'm looking for -- hint, hint, wink, wink. :D
  4. dsvirsky


    Aug 2, 1999
    Thanks for the interesting read.
  5. Wulf


    May 10, 2000
    The knifemaking community thanks you, Kevin. As do the collectors who want to know more about the knives they buy. This article is yet another fine contribution to the world of the forged blade, and I look forward to reading it. Twice. :)
  6. IronWolf


    Apr 3, 2004
    An excellent article Kevin, thanks.

    At shows, I am often asked why I forge, My answer is usually "because it is more fun!" the next question is "dosen't forging make a better blade?" then the conversation gets tricky as I try to explain myself, you have a talent for making the science entertaining. You have given me a few new ideas to help cross the gap between the $5 words and plain english
  7. Fox


    Feb 6, 2000
    Very well done, Kevin. :thumbup:
  8. Dana Hackney

    Dana Hackney

    Nov 1, 2005
    forging is only a time saving process (less time on the grinder) for an efficient
    smith (that excludes me!), as long as the heat treat is done correctly, whether done
    via stock removal vs forging?

    Best regards,
    Dana Hackney
    Monument, CO
  9. Dan Gray

    Dan Gray

    Jun 25, 2001
    very nice work up with that.. you know where the link will go...
    I've always said, steel likes a rolling better than taking a beaten..and that explains why or at least impart.
    I liken forging to gambling
    in (forged :) mill steel) stock removal you have a few less chances to loose your investment manly for me it's a time investment,,, sorry :eek: :)

    if I could add, if you lighten your test a little it would be easier to read..
    and bit bigger text could help also..for those of us that have eyes that are getting older :)

    I like the notes to self in your code
    <!-- sets text width permenantly --> :)
    I'm surely not talking about the (a and e swap in permanently)
    but talking about placing the comment tag in for the text.. as a reminder of what the code is for :)

    for those that can't read the text all that well and don't know this, just highlight it with your mouse

    put your curser at the upper left of the text and drag down once you've right clicked your mouse while holding it down, as if your going to copy the text for pasting...
    you'll get a white back ground making it easier to read..just trying to help:)
  10. Dan Gray

    Dan Gray

    Jun 25, 2001
    kevin try taking out the
    in your code

    also try ending your text lines with
    this will stop them from running over in differant browzers..small windows

    or this way

    <BR>this will stop them from running over in differant browzers..</BR>

    and you may have to put more tables inside your main table..
    this is a simple one but you can see how it works..

    <TR> (row)
    (text and picture links goes here)

    <TR> (new row)
    (and text and picture links goes here)
    to be safe
    save your work in another file name so you won't loose your main one untill you get it worked out..
    hope it helps or just chuck it :)
  11. David Wesner

    David Wesner

    Jan 5, 2005
    Thanks Kevin :thumbup: Thank God for Blade Forums & the many "mentors" I have found here.
  12. Tom Lewis

    Tom Lewis

    Feb 24, 2000
    Thanks Kevin, excellent articles. Just as the ABS taylors their tests to support the forged blade, stock removal knifemakers could taylor knife tests to support the stock removal blade. They could have a rust test. Most stock removal knives would pass this test, but most forged blades would not.
  13. Ed Schempp

    Ed Schempp

    Oct 10, 2003
    Kevin, thanks for your contribution. Your works artisticly and verbally serve the industry. You had some amazing work at Blade...Take Care...Ed
  14. rhrocker


    Jan 18, 2004
    Thanks Kevin. Now I really understand "Edge Packing" a lot better. :D
  15. Sweany


    Dec 3, 2002
    Bladesiths!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

    I like it. :D :D :D :D :D
  16. Kevin R. Cashen

    Kevin R. Cashen

    Sep 9, 2003
    Tom, I agree, but I must point out that the point of that writing was to expose the flaw in the logic of translating a test of a smith into a test of knife performance, The ABS has indeed been very good to me and I hope I left the reader with the point that that organization's intentions and messages are pure, just too many smiths eager to be "better" in some way have perverted that message and are hurting the industry.

    The stainless idea is good, but stock removers could also beat the forgers at their own game if the mass brainwashing hasn't gone too far, that is by showing how far and how much force it takes to break a fully hardened and tempered blade as opposed to the much lesser force it takes for soft steel to fold over.

    Things may change anyhow, since new alloys are being developed that will eventually out-perform many others, yet will not tolerate all the haphazard abuse that unprecise forging and heat treating practices can inflict. Part of my conern is us bladesmiths painting ourselves into a corner with our idle boasting and in the end being served a serious helping of crow because of our misguided pride. The higher you climb the farther you have to fall.

    One can make it to the top by flim flammery and hype but staying there is another story, I believe longevity in a business comes from a huge customer base that is competely satisfied with your integrety and that the product is honestly everything you said it was.
  17. B . Buxton

    B . Buxton

    Jul 8, 2001
    Posted bt Kevin "One can make it to the top by flim flammery and hype but staying there is another story, I believe longevity in a business comes from a huge customer base that is competely satisfied with your integrety and that the product is honestly everything you said it was."

    I agree with this statement most of all, but I was rasied when your quality of work sold your product and not all the flim flam. Unfortunately today the majority of the public isn't very knowledgeable about the knifemaking profession so the flim flam gets most of the attention.

  18. Tom Lewis

    Tom Lewis

    Feb 24, 2000
    Kevin, I wasn't trying to knock the ABS, I am a JS member, but like many others, I am tired of the hype, and nonsense that you exposed in your article. Thanks again for an excellent article.
  19. mlovett


    Oct 22, 2004
    Kevin, I would like to thank you for your courage in posting this article. I am ask continuously why I don't forge, as is my mentor RW. Loveless. Not many know it, but we both started out forging. I have no idea why the stock removal crowd is so silent on their methods. If I, or any stock removal maker had posted the same article, wewould be lynched. It has some how gotten to the point that any smith can make any calim under the sun, and it is taken in by the masses. Any remark challenging this, or making the same type of statement on behalf of stock removal is jusk asking for trouble. M. Lovett http://www.lovettknives.com/
  20. Kevin R. Cashen

    Kevin R. Cashen

    Sep 9, 2003
    mlovett, knowledge is power. I have seen a few voices in the wilderness speak up and counter some of the impossible claims made over the years, but outside of metallurgists, I had yet to see somebody simply explain how metal actually does move, and how it doesn't resemble "packing", "fracturing" or "increasing density" in any way. For every person who reads that article, we can check one more off the list of folks who are competely taken by wild claims simply because they didn't know any better. And for every hype-monger that reads it and still continues with the bull, we can move a name from "innocently mistaken" to "shamless deceiver" category.

    Being a bladesmith myself, some could say that I am shooting myself in the foot, but even though I am a self described cynic, I do have faith that knife buyers will respond favorably to a breath of fresh air in a sea of chest thumping thinly veiled advertising. For years as a smith I was held back and stunted by the hooey that had been spoon fed to me by some big boys, and publications, until my first metallurgical textbook released me. Now I combine my hands on experince with the books to verify that they are not just theoretical science but solid priciples that work, as opposed to the many myth laden fantasies that so many smiths unquestioningly cling to.

    My living comes from selling knives but the pastime that is my passion, is giving back to this business by debunking the myths that plague knifemaking, and holding hype mongers feet to the fire. Not in a nasty confrontational way but by simply insisting on them including some facts and verifiable data along with their sales pitches. Unfortunately I have found that asking for that data can be one of the cruelest things I can do to the poor guys (judging from their reaction that is;) ). Tip- if you can't ask questions about any data supporting a claim, without offending...something is really fishy!

Share This Page