Finnish/Earlier Scandi axes - Kirves

Nice one! Jus weigh the head And you'll know exactly what it is. Or just measure the edge? My guess is a 25.6 or a 25.7. But I actually think its a 25.6 judging from the 26 you have overlayed on top. Both the 25.6 and 25.7 are quite rare.

As a side note: Big steps are made with the presumably Danisch axe. Thats ones even bigger, although I cant say anything about the weight of it at the moment. Hoping for the best, praying for the worst. I've already set aside handle material for the project.

Your guess on the model is as good as mine. Someone did bang on the back of the blade and pushed it out a touch but I've noticed something about their builds that I haven't seen mentioned before (of course, I don't speak Finnish so it's possible it's been discussed a lot and I don't know it).
Both of their bits are noticeably thinner overall at the toes than at the heels.

What would the design function of that be?

A big Danish axe is another thing I wouldn't find around here!
 
Both of their bits are noticeably thinner overall at the toes than at the heels.

What would the design function of that be?

You have hit on one of the core features of not only the piilukirves but its predecessor the Swedish timmerbila. It's a fairly late development in the style, (a claim that dangles unsatisfactorily without a long and involved time-line of the axes' evolution which I'm neither qualified nor inclined to go into), you see appear at a certain point. Earlier piis which follow the Swedish model lack this feature, having a parabolic form when seen from the perspective you show in the picture, (we can see it clearly in one picture I already posted in the pictures thread, pp. 65 or thereabouts), but they eventually caught up and by the time mass production came in the more common form of the Billnäs variations took over.
One speculative explanation is the narrowness of the toe is used to open up the chip and in the progression the heel peels it away clearing the line of sight to advance the cut. I'm not convinced suggesting as it does that the work proceeds more or less along the grain of the wood when we know that in the Finnish technique is to work across grain to produce the channels perpendicular to the timber's length down the entire height of the completed stacked walls. At the same time the cross grain action doesn't rule out this effect of the taper on opening the cut, you would simply advance the cutting point of the blade while maintaining a stationary position within the channel on the timber.
I have spent the week with the blacksmiths trying to reproduce timmerbila in this model and this very point posed one of the many great difficulties in the forging process. As close as we got, the end results seemed to be more top-heavy because the edges were lacking this very significant taper like that.
img_0459.jpg
 
I don’t have a an accurate scale here at home so to weigh that head I used my body weight then again holding the head against my chest. That method resulted in over 8lbs but it was awfully hard to get a consistent read when, even bending over to read the scale, it changed on me. I was forgot that my scale breaks pounds into tenths and not into ounces, and I had yet to remove all the wood from the eye of the thing before weighing, so I took it to work this morning and weighed on a scale we have there.

Big.piilukirves

7.334lbs or 3.32kg


Big.piilukirves

The angle is funny on the picture and the tape is pulled tight from the catch as opposed to the actually end of it but I come up close to:
8 5/8” or 219mm

Agent_H Agent_H


Measure the length of the blade for me will you? That will determine what it is


Length of the blade:

Around 12": 25/7 .

Around 11": 25/6.

Around 10": 25/5.


Same goes for weight, only that becomes less accurate as time goes by, as blades tend to become lighter when sharpening.


Weight of the head:

Around 9.5 pounds : 25/7

Around 8.8 pounds : 25/6

Around 7.7 pounds : 25/5


When is America Finally going to convert top the metric systems? This stuff F***'s with me head
C:\Users\clint\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png

Around 12": 25/7.
Around 11": 25/6.
Around 10": 25/5.
Around 8.8”: 25/4.

Weight of the head:
Around 9.5 pounds : 25/7
Around 8.8 pounds : 25/6
Around 7.7 pounds : 25/5
Around 7.2 pounds : 25/4

Maybe a 25/5 with use and wear?

It's going to be a beautiful thing (to me maybe) when I go over the collar mouth, do the edge/bit, and make an Ash handle for it.
 
I never did tune into these pages much before but I can see this is where the interesting stuff has shifted in the wake of all these long and boring general topic threads out front here. You got some nice postings Classic Plastic, (and others of course), did you recognize, by any chance, these two? (Not my own axes by the way, unfortunately).
22519207_10155143852482799_2183673490157209633_n.jpg

22519207_10155143852482799_2183673490157209633_n.jpg


You have hit on one of the core features of not only the piilukirves but its predecessor the Swedish timmerbila. It's a fairly late development in the style, (a claim that dangles unsatisfactorily without a long and involved time-line of the axes' evolution which I'm neither qualified nor inclined to go into), you see appear at a certain point. Earlier piis which follow the Swedish model lack this feature, having a parabolic form when seen from the perspective you show in the picture, (we can see it clearly in one picture I already posted in the pictures thread, pp. 65 or thereabouts), but they eventually caught up and by the time mass production came in the more common form of the Billnäs variations took over.
One speculative explanation is the narrowness of the toe is used to open up the chip and in the progression the heel peels it away clearing the line of sight to advance the cut. I'm not convinced suggesting as it does that the work proceeds more or less along the grain of the wood when we know that in the Finnish technique is to work across grain to produce the channels perpendicular to the timber's length down the entire height of the completed stacked walls. At the same time the cross grain action doesn't rule out this effect of the taper on opening the cut, you would simply advance the cutting point of the blade while maintaining a stationary position within the channel on the timber.
I have spent the week with the blacksmiths trying to reproduce timmerbila in this model and this very point posed one of the many great difficulties in the forging process. As close as we got, the end results seemed to be more top-heavy because the edges were lacking this very significant taper like that.
img_0459.jpg

Ernest, does that "axe in the making" (thank you for pausing, taking the picture, and sharing) contain any of that piece of chain you dredged up by any chance?

I recognize the shape of the one on the right but the one on the left I am having trouble placing - maybe not something I have personally looked at head on. Please share :thumbsup:
 
I recognize the shape of the one on the right but the one on the left I am having trouble placing - maybe not something I have personally looked at head on. Please share :thumbsup:
Here is the side-on view of the two axes from the picture you kindly transferred over to here, on the left the older Finn. right the Swede.
22549618_10155143851532799_7272605752453358630_n.jpg

I add my contribution of the pilings anchor to the raw materials pile,
p4182414.jpg
p4182418.jpg
whether or not it got picked up and transformed I can't say since I was busy on other axe tasks while the blacksmiths were at their forges.
img_0681.jpg
img_0573.jpg
the axe I've got here made by Serge Turberg.
 
I actually think its a 25.4 looking at your measurements. You haven't lost that much metal. Its pretty much still all there. Weight is about the same as well. Each step from the 25/4 up is actually quite a large step. If loosing metal, you would have only half of the metal you currently have in blade depth. And way less weight.

As for your scale: One that breaks it into tenths is better for me as I'm metric orientated. Way more accurate measurement, since scaling will stay the same. Al the weights I referred to are actually measured in tenths as well.

And as for the axe itself: It sure is a beautifull thing! What I'm actually wondering though: Does it have a hole in the side of the haft where you fit a nail? Or is it just plain on both sides? I know the later models have a hole there, the earlier ones don't. I don't now the actuall date when they switched to the hole though. Just don't carve out a pocket in the handle. They will tend to come loose if you do that without the nail. And when you don't have the pockets you can just tap the handle slightly since it friction fit. With a pocket you'll have to remove the old handle. Which'll most likely suck....

I appreciate the take on figuring the model, Kevin. It doesn't have a hole anywhere, assuming you mean in the collar to pin it through the handle?

When you say, "pocket" are you referring to a defined ledge/shelf where the shoulder meets the collar? As in doing this to it isn't the best idea?


Might be a misinterpretation on my part but if so, then I can get behind that.
 
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It's going to be a beautiful thing (to me maybe) when I go over the collar mouth, do the edge/bit, and make an Ash handle for it.
It will be, no doubting that. Ash has that prominent grain because it’s ring poreus where diffuse poreus woods don’t have this character to the same degree, it’s why I always like so much the plane looking birch that the Finns typically use since it doesn’t draw attention from the impressive head.
When you have your heart set on that shoulderd look at the socket/grip transition, fine so long as you leave a 2 or 3 mm gap in case it becomes necessary to re-seat the head.
 
Here is the side-on view of the two axes from the picture you kindly transferred over to here, on the left the older Finn. right the Swede.
22549618_10155143851532799_7272605752453358630_n.jpg

I add my contribution of the pilings anchor to the raw materials pile,
p4182414.jpg
p4182418.jpg
whether or not it got picked up and transformed I can't say since I was busy on other axe tasks while the blacksmiths were at their forges.
img_0681.jpg
img_0573.jpg
the axe I've got here made by Serge Turberg.

The old adage, "A picture is worth a thousand words" comes to mind with your last post there Ernest.
(I bet the Dutch have an expression for the same)

I appreciate the side view of those two axes! They aren't something I've had hands-on experience with- just seeing pictures that never included edge facing angles. I actually assumed the one the right was a piilukirves that you had shared pictures of several years ago but the thickness of the left-hand one left me guessing.

Also I was reading the allaxemen wordpress and see many of the talented characters you have mentioned in your sharings here, including a certain Galenaian practicing the dark arts.

I will have the Ernest Dubois 2020 illustrated calendar set for final review before September lol.
 
I found the utility of doing it that way just recently werking in France’s drier climate where another socketed axe head came loose but was effortlessly reset a fraction further down the handle because there was this allowance. You may never use it but it is so fine to have when needed.
 
The old adage, "A picture is worth a thousand words" comes to mind with your last post there Ernest.
(I bet the Dutch have an expression for the same)

I appreciate the side view of those two axes! They aren't something I've had hands-on experience with- just seeing pictures that never included edge facing angles. I actually assumed the one the right was a piilukirves that you had shared pictures of several years ago but the thickness of the left-hand one left me guessing.

Also I was reading the allaxemen wordpress and see many of the talented characters you have mentioned in your sharings here, including a certain Galenaian practicing the dark arts.

I will have the Ernest Dubois 2020 illustrated calendar set for final review before September lol.
Not the most accessible axes by any means. But I have by and large given up on handeling these upper European timber axes, too far a-field for me as I stick mostly now to the mid-European terrain.
It’s true, many skilled and informed people joining in to make axes down in Beumene and I Think Some important work has come out of the time spent there.
 
It’s a rusty 8lb 4oz piilukirves alright

Big.piilukirves



Big.piilukirves


This wasn’t the easiest tongue to remove that I’ve done but it did come out after a mess and a lot of different tools. The eye is so small at the end that you really can’t send much down there to knock it out. Previous owner(s) mashed the collar mouth some but I think I can fix that pretty well.

Big.piilukirves



Big.piilukirves



Big.piilukirves



Big.piilukirves



Big.piilukirves



Big.piilukirves


I think it was maybe one of the larger models.

Big.piilukirves

What a fantastic axe!!!
 
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