Forged In Fire

Well, one of the reprecussions of this show happened to me yesterday. Got a phone call from a fella wanting to order "a chopping knife". We chatted about what he wanted, and I quoted him a price..... his response was "What!? Are you crazy? I saw that show on the History Channel......and I know you can make a knife in less then a day!" The conversation ended shortly there after. Had it not happened to me, I would not have believed it.

Now I guess its just a matter of time until somebody calls up and tells me they have an old prybar or a farrier's rasp that they want me to make them a knife from, and tell me they saw it on TV. :)
 
Ed Caffrey said:
Well, one of the reprecussions of this show happened to me yesterday. Got a phone call from a fella wanting to order "a chopping knife". We chatted about what he wanted, and I quoted him a price..... his response was "What!? Are you crazy? I saw that show on the History Channel......and I know you can make a knife in less then a day!" The conversation ended shortly there after. Had it not happened to me, I would not have believed it.

Now I guess its just a matter of time until somebody calls up and tells me they have an old prybar or a farrier's rasp that they want me to make them a knife from, and tell me they saw it on TV. :)
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Wow!!
 
Now, Ed, you know if it's on the internet or on TV it has to be true;)

I have kept quiet about this show, but to me….my very own personal opinion it's taking all of you true Master Smiths back a step or two. The number of Smiths who were contacted to participate and who refused is another story in itself.

There are those who say it will bring new folks into the world of custom knives. I sincerely doubt that, and your experience tends to prove my point. They come into the custom knife community with the wrong ideas about what it takes to really make a forged knife or even stock removal for that matter.

I really feel sorry for the guys who did chose to participate because they were not allowed to show what they are REALLY capable of.

Some say it's "entertainment"…………I am not entertained by seeing my friends and colleagues subjected to a format that ultimately fails to show their true talent, and in fact just the reverse.

Finally, the use of the word WEAPON every three minutes also tends to convey the wrong image and message in my opinion.

Off my soap box and back to your regular programming.

Paul
 
Ebbtide said:
It is the same formula that we've seen over and over.
Artists, furniture makers, tattooists, chefs...
One contestant that everyone will love to hate.
One that they'll root for.
One complainer, or all complainers.

And most important of all, set them up to fail.

The unwashed masses don't want to see something done well and learn from it.

They want to see the failures.
They want to sit in judgment of the contestants.
They want to see the interpersonal strife.
They want to use the crumbs of information that they have gleaned to justify their condemnations.

That is the formula for success.
Welcome to reality tv.
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^^^This pretty much hits the nail right on the head. I kind of agree with Don H. and the others that it's entertainment and will continue to watch. But I'll watch more because it's a train wreck I can't look away from more so than I'm entertained by it.

Most of me agrees with Paul Long in this though. I think it's damaging to our image as bladesmiths and doesn't focus enough on knives being quality TOOLS not necessarily weapons. But......it is what it is and I think we all kind of knew it would be. ;)
 
Ed Caffrey said:
Got a phone call from a fella wanting to order...
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That sounds like a positive repurcussion to me!

No one is born a custom knife enthusiast, that's a learned thing and we all start somewhere, the guy you talked to might have started while watching the show. In 5 years, he might call you back and place an order for a $3000 knife.

I think some of you might be losing sight of the bigger picture here, and that's totally understandable. How many top chefs do you think take Chopped or Hell's Kitchen seriously? As professionals, it's super easy for you guys to see through the spectacle of the thing and pick apart every aspect. But to the layperson, who didn't even know that PEOPLE make knives before seeing them do so on tv, this kind of stuff can help to open minds...and wallets!

Just think of it this way; say 20 000 people who know nothing of custom cutlery watch this show. Of that, do you think it's reasonable to assume that up to 5% of them might follow up with a call to a knife maker, a visit to an online purveyor, discovery of Bladeforums? That's 1000 people! These are arbitrary numbers that I'm pulling out of my ass. But consider the resources behind this show; the demographic surveys, viewer surveys etc... a lot of time and money was invested with the expectation of a return- this stuff is never done on a lark, and is always done to generate profit.

And please also consider the risk and investment by those who've chosen to participate. I personally feel like these guys should be commended for sticking their necks out, and they should be encouraged by their peers to succeed.

As for the weapons slant the show has, I personally agree with Mr. Long in a sense. But....just consider how this approach might have been arrived upon. Viewer surveys, demographic studies etc. I think it's safe to say that, generally speaking, Americans LOVE weapons! Now, I'd prefer watching a show that portrays the creation of knives as tools, but I know that consumers of programs like this are less likely to be engaged by that angle, and the job of any source of entertainment is to engage as many as possible to the point of saturation.

I pulled the following from a friend's facebook feed, (without permission :) ), and I think it merits a read;

I have to say that I’m a little bit disappointed to read the comments that are streaming in. Especially from other custom makers.

Before making the decision to be part of the show, I spent a lot of time talking to fellow smiths about their thoughts on the show, both negative and positive. Almost unanimously, the feedback I got was extreme skepticism and negativity about how they will represent us personally, as craftsmen, as a representative of our trade, the quality of our work and what it will do to our reputations as makers.

Based on all the competition/“reality” bull-shit, shit-show television out there, I have to say that I was on the same side of things.

Sadly, I’m seeing the exact negativity and reputation bashing that we were afraid of right here. We’re doing it to ourselves. If this is how we’re treating each other, what keeps them from doing the same and most likely worse? Not just to us and our trade, but on future shows to other makers and other trades?

Everything I’ve heard from non-makers and folks completely unfamiliar with our craft has been nothing but positivity and awe. By talking shit here and tearing our fellow craftsmen apart we’re setting an incredibly poor example that does nothing but turn us into the evil we feared would befall us.

This is our opportunity to stand together and show the entertainment powers that be, that though we may not agree with choices made, techniques or actions taken, we stand together and applaud our fellow makers for putting forth their best efforts with what they had to work with.

You’ve chosen to or not to be part of the show, and whether we wanted it or not, the show was going to be made. You may not appreciate me, the rest of our representation on the show or even the show itself, but as fellow craftsmen of bladesmithing, I believe we need to show the world that we are an honorable trade and that we stand together.
 
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I suppose the weaponly slant of the show is bad for "knife politics," but edged weapons absolutely are the most universally interesting and historically captivating part of the last several thousand years of bladesmithing.
 
On the other hand, and this is a serous question, is any serious smith lacking in customers? A good website, some publicity savvy, and of course a given, talent...would seem to provide all the customers a man could want. There are a lot of examples of makers here who have started out small and grown into a mini-one man industry. You guys can think of a few dozen like I can. Why is a show like this important?
 
Ed,

When some people find out what I charge for my knives and what they go for at a knife show they think it is crazy and that was long before "Forged in Fire".

Heck I am a knifemaker and I think some of the new breed of tactical folders selling for thousands is crazy LOL

Now as for that telephone call, sure he did not want to spend what you "Ed Caffery" charges but he probably could find a new young bladesmith to make him something in his price range.
 
It's Show Business pure & simple. I do find the show entertaining but a bit disappointing.

The idea of giving Bladesmiths a little time to make a knife certainly isn't new or unique.
Remember "The Battle of the Bladesmiths" five years ago at the ABS Hammer-in in North Carolina?

The makers were only given 2 hours and less materials and tools/equipment to work with yet didn't seem to struggle as much, actually producing
some pretty nice knives.

bill wiggins said:
Our third annual ABS Great Smoky Hammer-in will be held March 6-8-2010 at Haywood Community College in Clyde, NC.

We will be having a new event this year. It will be "The Battle of the Bladesmiths." We have three Mastersmiths lined up to compete and are talking with one more. Right now, the competitors are Burt Foster, Russ Andrews, and Jason Knight. Since Jason is one of our main demonstrators, he will be the "Iron Bladesmith" until he is defeated. As you can tell, the idea for this came from the Iron Chef.

Each competitor will be given a piece of steel, some kind of handle material, some pin stock and maybe some super glue. Can't give all the materials away yet!! For tools, they will each have a forge, anvil and a belt grinder. There will also be a drill press available to them. Other than that, the only tools they have will be what they carry in. And that is limited to a 5 gallon bucket. Once the event begins, they will have two hours to make what they can. After the two hours, each knife will be tested for heat treat and edge geometry. Those attending will then be ask to vote and pick the winner. These knives will be available in the auction.
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Kevin Jones said:
021.jpg


Jason after finishing. Looks just a little tied:
004.jpg


And here's Jason's completed knife. Cord wraped, good strategic move if I ever saw one:
005.jpg


Burt with his knife. You can tell by their faces that this was no walk in the park:
007.jpg


And Burt's knife:
009.jpg


And Jim Rodebaugh and his knife:
011.jpg


And the three knives together; Burts, Jason's and Jim's (top to bottom).
023-1.jpg
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I'm just going to agree with Lorien and his friends words. As a contestant I debated the pros and cons of doing the show both for my own meager reputation and more importantly this craft I love that has done so much for me. When I met my fellow contestants I was greeted as a peer, as a brother by other craftsmen with a love for what we do. All of them had the same concerns as I. They were incredibly nervous, we had no idea what we were walking into, they're biggest concern was not how they would look but how the show would portray our craft and the people in it. For some of them it was so much so that it effected their performance which is unfortunate because I looked at their work and it's fantastic.
We were worried the show was going to make our craft of Bladesmithing and Blacksmithing look like a joke. But here's the twist it doesn't those at the show seem to be doing their best not to, trying to focus on the nature of the competition and keep it entertaining for the viewer. They have gone out of their way to portray us well. Our peers however, that is another story all together. The real embarrassment here is how you are behaving, attacking your fellow makers and enthusiasts the way you have makes me sick. You have no idea what those guys were going through, but you have made at least one of their nightmares come true. To be attacked by the people they respect and admire in some cases look up to. Judging people off the limited screenshots of a tv show that are often out of order under circumstances you are clueless about projecting a shitty elitist attitude like your way of making a blade is the only way. Let me remind you there are a lot of ways to make a blade a lot wrong ways as well but there is no one way. Your the embarrassment to the craft, your critical monday morning quarterbacking elitist attitude is what is embarrassing and I'm glad the " unwashed masses " as someone put it are not on most of our "community" forums to see it. I am not the greatest Bladesmith in the world nor do I want to be. I do this because I love it, I do this to be better tomorrow than I am today. Words are not my strong suite but I can not watch my fellow craftsmen be treated this way. I have always found other makers to be incredibly supportive of each other please remember that, and what we are truly about.
 
One of the bladesmiths in the 1st episode is Joe Waites, who works for Albion Swords... imho, his knife (even though it had cracks near the tip) was more usable than the one the judge refused to stab into the drum, since that one had several cracks near the gaurd... if that one had failed, it would have left a tiny nubbin of a blade.
 
Mecha said:
I suppose the weaponly slant of the show is bad for "knife politics," but edged weapons absolutely are the most universally interesting and historically captivating part of the last several thousand years of bladesmithing.
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Couldn't agree more !
Great post, Mecha.

Doug
 
David Stifle said:
On the other hand, and this is a serous question, is any serious smith lacking in customers? A good website, some publicity savvy, and of course a given, talent...would seem to provide all the customers a man could want. There are a lot of examples of makers here who have started out small and grown into a mini-one man industry. You guys can think of a few dozen like I can. Why is a show like this important?
Click to expand...

Given the dollars that makers of folding knives are fetching for their work, my answer to your question is that most serious bladesmiths might not be lacking in customers, but they are lacking in profit.

I just acquired an exceptionally well crafted, sole authorship, damascus knife with a complex frame handle by a universally recognized maker for less than the price of a Mayo framelock. I'm no expert, but it's readily evident how much more work went into the forged blade.

If this show, or shows like this, elevate the perception of value by potential consumers, and increases the number- and therefore competition- of consumers, then that benefits the blade smiths who master their trade with increased revenue that will help feed their families. I'm all for raising the minimum wage of blade smithing. I wish more people work for themselves and find the rewards of doing so, as it stands, it's a very tough living which essentially requires additional income from other work. This 'rising of the tide' also benefits collectors who've accumulated quality work at today's prices.

That anyone is seriously slagging the people who participate in this show, I think you better check yourselves before you project your jealousy and envy outward through your expressions of disdain. These guys are taking a big risk, and the outcome could, and likely will, benefit you. So unless you like having egg on your face, I'd suggest taking Mr. Farrell's words to heart, and temper your disdain. You don't have to like it, but you don't have to be a dick about it either. These guys are your peers, and it's universally seen as unprofessional to shit on your peers.

Pretty sure that's about all I have to say about that :)
 
Lorien said:
That sounds like a positive repurcussion to me!

No one is born a custom knife enthusiast, that's a learned thing and we all start somewhere, the guy you talked to might have started while watching the show. In 5 years, he might call you back and place an order for a $3000 knife.

I think some of you might be losing sight of the bigger picture here, and that's totally understandable. How many top chefs do you think take Chopped or Hell's Kitchen seriously? As professionals, it's super easy for you guys to see through the spectacle of the thing and pick apart every aspect. But to the layperson, who didn't even know that PEOPLE make knives before seeing them do so on tv, this kind of stuff can help to open minds...and wallets!

Just think of it this way; say 20 000 people who know nothing of custom cutlery watch this show. Of that, do you think it's reasonable to assume that up to 5% of them might follow up with a call to a knife maker, a visit to an online purveyor, discovery of Bladeforums? That's 1000 people! These are arbitrary numbers that I'm pulling out of my ass. But consider the resources behind this show; the demographic surveys, viewer surveys etc... a lot of time and money was invested with the expectation of a return- this stuff is never done on a lark, and is always done to generate profit.

And please also consider the risk and investment by those who've chosen to participate. I personally feel like these guys should be commended for sticking their necks out, and they should be encouraged by their peers to succeed.

As for the weapons slant the show has, I personally agree with Mr. Long in a sense. But....just consider how this approach might have been arrived upon. Viewer surveys, demographic studies etc. I think it's safe to say that, generally speaking, Americans LOVE weapons! Now, I'd prefer watching a show that portrays the creation of knives as tools, but I know that consumers of programs like this are less likely to be engaged by that angle, and the job of any source of entertainment is to engage as many as possible to the point of saturation.
.[/I]
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I have to agree about getting new guys into knives, I started into knife making and customs after reading about a guy in a small local paper 5 years ago. my only concern about the show is that it may hurt some of the blades smiths reputations who lose in the show because at least a few are friends of mine. and the weapon thing is not much of a big deal to me it may not be "politically correct" but its much more exiting to se a guy chop up a dummy then cut up some card board and make a feather stick.
 
Lorien said:
Given the dollars that makers of folding knives are fetching for their work, my answer to your question is that most serious bladesmiths might not be lacking in customers, but they are lacking in profit.

I just acquired an exceptionally well crafted, sole authorship, damascus knife with a complex frame handle by a universally recognized maker for less than the price of a Mayo framelock. I'm no expert, but it's readily evident how much more work went into the forged blade.

If this show, or shows like this, elevate the perception of value by potential consumers, and increases the number- and therefore competition- of consumers, then that benefits the blade smiths who master their trade with increased revenue that will help feed their families. I'm all for raising the minimum wage of blade smithing. I wish more people work for themselves and find the rewards of doing so, as it stands, it's a very tough living which essentially requires additional income from other work. This 'rising of the tide' also benefits collectors who've accumulated quality work at today's prices.

That anyone is seriously slagging the people who participate in this show, I think you better check yourselves before you project your jealousy and envy outward through your expressions of disdain. These guys are taking a big risk, and the outcome could, and likely will, benefit you. So unless you like having egg on your face, I'd suggest taking Mr. Farrell's words to heart, and temper your disdain. You don't have to like it, but you don't have to be a dick about it either. These guys are your peers, and it's universally seen as unprofessional to shit on your peers.

IPretty sure that's about all I have to say about that :)
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I think you and chris just shut this thread down.....lol (in a good way) thanks guys!
 
sheathmaker said:
Now, Ed, you know if it's on the internet or on TV it has to be true;)

I have kept quiet about this show, but to me….my very own personal opinion it's taking all of you true Master Smiths back a step or two. The number of Smiths who were contacted to participate and who refused is another story in itself.

There are those who say it will bring new folks into the world of custom knives. I sincerely doubt that, and your experience tends to prove my point. They come into the custom knife community with the wrong ideas about what it takes to really make a forged knife or even stock removal for that matter.

I really feel sorry for the guys who did chose to participate because they were not allowed to show what they are REALLY capable of.

Some say it's "entertainment"…………I am not entertained by seeing my friends and colleagues subjected to a format that ultimately fails to show their true talent, and in fact just the reverse.

Finally, the use of the word WEAPON every three minutes also tends to convey the wrong image and message in my opinion.

Off my soap box and back to your regular programming.

Paul
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Good points Paul.
The show had the potential to raise custom knives, but as I stated earlier, it's been a disappointment so far.
 
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I can't offer any substantive comment as the show doesn't air on the History channel in my neck of the woods.

That said, Paul's comments make a whole lot of sense to me, as they invariably do.

Lorien - where are you seeing the show - does it air in BC? It doesn't in Ontario.
 
I am a collector and likely couldn't make a knife to save my own life. That said, I have read with interest all the comments regarding the show, particularly those of the contestant who participated. I too have been disappointed in the show and how it portrays the craft of knife making. I think it does show the general process but it fails to illustrate the potential results under normal circumstances. I get that it is supposed to be entertaining and, from that limited perspective, perhaps it succeeds.

What concerns me is that the show never introduces the makers' real work, what they are capable of doing under proper circumstances. I think if it did that the makers on the show would be better represented and it would add perspective to the challenge of making a blade under the conditions set forth on the stage. As is stands, the audience knows little about these contestants and what they are capable of producing. More importantly, the audience knows nothing of what blade smiths in general are capable of producing with a forge. All we see is the crap that is produced in these circumstances. And, let's not kid ourselves, it is all crap. No collector would buy one of those knives and nobody in the audience who is not a collector would see those blade and think, Wow that really is better than what I can buy at the mall. I'm not sure how that helps the industry of custom knives or motivates people to look into buying a custom knife.

Again, if the show would introduce each contestant and show off pieces of their current work, it would better illustrate the challenge of the contest and the circumstances of forging a blade within 3 hours under these conditions. These knife makers would get some exposure and the custom knife industry would be seen in a better light. Even if they just showed work done by J. Neilson to illustrate what is possible with a forge it would be better. I feel for CS Farrel because I can tell he is hurt by all the negativity. I doubt any of the concerns over the show are directed personally towards those who choose to participate. All contestants did what they could under conditions of the challenge and none of us who did not know them prior to the show had any perspective regarding their true capabilities. That is a shame IMHO.
 
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