General Question of Stropping and Honing my Dovo

You don't have to raise the spine to convex the edge. Convexing the edge of a razor is way different then knives. You just hone with slurry. I do it on jnats. The convex is super slight. It keeps the edge from scraping into your skin and causing irritation and only cuts the hair. You all would benefit greatly from doin some research over at the straight razor place. Everything I've said has been proven over there. Also I know that leather will very gently abrade metal, but only slightly which is what polishing is. But the main purpose for stropping is aligning the edge. Please go to srp and look at all the research that's been done there and don't confuse sharpening of razors and knives. Convexing the edge is way different in the razor world
 
I also mean no disrespect. Just trying to relay some of the things I've read from research on other forums.
 
Leethal Cutlery said:
You don't have to raise the spine to convex the edge. Convexing the edge of a razor is way different then knives. You just hone with slurry. I do it on jnats. The convex is super slight. It keeps the edge from scraping into your skin and causing irritation and only cuts the hair. You all would benefit greatly from doin some research over at the straight razor place. Everything I've said has been proven over there. Also I know that leather will very gently abrade metal, but only slightly which is what polishing is. But the main purpose for stropping is aligning the edge. Please go to srp and look at all the research that's been done there and don't confuse sharpening of razors and knives. Convexing the edge is way different in the razor world
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I am quite active over on SRP. Would you care to provide links to these references? I have not seen any proof posted of the things you speak.

Thanks in advance
 
I have sent many of my blades off for magnified photos. Before and after shots. Up to 1000 power, hence I've paid for the knowledge. True you can't trust much thats stated as fact on internet chat sites. DM
 
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Yes I was aware it has been discussed. You mentioned "proof", which generally signifies scientific study and documentation.

I hoped to find references to papers studying the difference between honing with slurry vs without and some sort of documented study of what is actually taking place during stropping.

There are many *discussions* regarding edge treatments on SRD. There are also many fine folks subjectively discussing what works well for them (with many others who will state that the same treatment does not work well for them). Often times there is also supposition of what is going on, with nothing beyond hunches and conjecture to support the statements. In the end, everyone is correct in stating their preference for what they have found to work well.

I would be interested in reviewing any scientific studies that anyone can provide with regard to what stropping on leather physically does to an edge as well as any studies that demonstrate that a convex edge will result from use of slurry on a hone.

Thanks in advance.
 
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David, I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to get at. I think we have four guys having five conversations here. So lets break it down into individual parts.

Is the strop removing metal: I think it is. it may be very slight, but leather on its own is very slightly abrasive, and since everything eventually gets some sort of dust or whatever on it, I would say that a bare leather strop has at least some abrasive properties.

Is the strop forming the metal (burnishing or the like) Again, I would say yes, it stands to reason, the edge of the razor is very fine, so I would suspect that the very edge has some "mechanical" change going on, metal being moved.

Is there a fin? I don't think so. There is no proof that there is, and the idea of it comes from a manufacturer. Therefor not an unbiased source, so I don't believe it.

Does a stop "convex" an edge. I think it does, the strop forms a curve, therefor the material being stropped should eventually form to that curve. That said, the amount of curve is related to how much the strop curves. you can "strop" on glass, and the amount it will deflect is very small. You could strop on a thick piece of cotton fluff, and the deflection would be greater. Also on what scale, microns? how many swipes of a stone to return it to flat? I don't know.
Finally, and discussion of honing, stropping, and shaving has to take into account that there are no "right ways" to do things. Razors have been stropped on jeans, tires, belts, newspapers, cigars, and a range of body parts. Soaps react with the hair and skin in different ways. Subtle differences in technique can have huge impacts between different faces.

All I know is what works for me, and every time I think I've got something right, I find something better. So for me to say what is the best method, is a bit presumptuous. Even if I compare just my tolerance for what a "good" shave is, its night and day from even a few years ago. My methods have changed just as much as my standards. Heck, I honed on a barbers hone full of wax for over a year! shows how much I know! Thats why there is room for discussion and learning. Share what you know. But lets differentiate what we know, and what we suspect.
 
What evidence is there to support that a bare leather strop is abrasive such that it removes hardened steel?
 
gadget, What I saw from the photos, supports your point 1&2. The article I submitted on stropping actually states this on pg.55 last paragraph, almost in your wording. On your point 3 I don't know. On your point 4, yes and much quicker than one might think. Like after 200 on a spongy material like leather. Still, is this a good or bad thing.--- I'm not sure. I'm currently shaving with a Feather blade (double edge) and its on shave #50. Is it convexed? Yes, but not as much as I've seen on my straight razor from stropping on plain leather as the double edge only sees stropping on paper backed with a hard surface. My experience, your mileage may vary. DM
 
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David Martin said:
...yet what members really wanted to do was slam it. Plus, never present evidence of their own.
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I have no desire to slam anyone pursuing facts and striving to support or disprove their hunches. I won't slam those who parrot info they read elsewhere (even if it contributes to spreading unfounded myth). I just am seeking knowledge.

I cannot produce or disprove anything, thus I ask others for references.

I have presumed that the discoloration that is witnessed on unloaded heavily used strops comes from removal of micro corrosion. It seems logical, though I cannot prove it. I further presume that any metal removed is done so through progressive folding of a weak edge and not via abrasives (again only conjecture). This removal is further presumed to occur immediately following honing and diminishes or stops completely shortly after.

My only support for this is the seeming dis-proof of hardened steel removal via leather strop. My hypothesis is/was that if leather removes steel, then over time we should see suggestion that the effective edge angle becomes more obtuse from over-stropping and over-convexing.

I have blades with over 10,000 laps on bare strops that do not demonstrate any change in shape of the bevel beyond initial stropping following the honing.

Not pure science, but it is suggestive...

I will point out that perhaps individual results will vary due to stropping techniques. A slack strop will effectively convex an edge (as it destroys it prematurely) through progressive rolling of the edge. Care should be exercised to utilize proper techniques as "defined" by conventional definitions (see a skilled wet shaver/razor honer for this;)).
 
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So, you've seen no magnified pictures of this blades edge thats been stropped 10,000 times? DM
 
When I say "fin" I mean the very apex of the cutting edge. The microscopic edge that draws out to Infiniti. How can a razor or any other cutting device not have one. Think about it. Why do chefs use a steel? To realign the edge after use. It's no different here. After use the razors edge gets damaged microscopically. Little micro chips occur and everything that has to do with making metal dull occurs. Stropping fixes that by polishing off the edge again and gently realigning the edge.
 
Also, I'm with unit on the dark mess on strops being more oxidation then metal. I also want to say that if that bashing comment was directed at me then I apologize because that's not my intention. I love discussing stuff like this with you guys. It's how we learn different techniques and knowledge all together.
 
I seem to recall that old Russian horse leather strops had a higher amount of silicates in/on them
due to the manufacturing process , perhaps the non/less "silicated" strops needs some loading in order to remove metal !?

1234,,,:)
 
Your desired evidence has been submitted, all you have to do is read the article. It has been known that stropping does indeed remove metal for over 80yrs.. Can we lay this to rest? DM
 
David Martin said:
Your desired evidence has been submitted, all you have to do is read the article. It has been known that stropping does indeed remove metal for over 80yrs.. Can we lay this to rest? DM
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You may do anything you like. The links you provided do not work for me...I will try them on another computer later.

Results:
No site defined on this host. If you are the owner of this site, please check Debugging a WordPress Network for help.
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and
The page you are looking for cannot be found.
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Perhaps I am misunderstanding your tone, but you seem dismissive and apprehensive. Apologies if I am interpreting this wrong.
 
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