Ground Fighting Against Knife

USAFSP,

In your training, when you are taught to drop a malfunctioning weapon -- is it a long gun or carbine, or is that only when using a pistol?

Best,

Brian.
 
A very interesting book, MANAGEMENT OF AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR (MOAB), teaches something similar to the initial post of this thread.
However, it makes several presuppositions:
1. the attack takes place in a public building with an active population, such as a hospital;
2. the defender cannot escape;
3. the defender has no special advantage, such as training; and
4. the defender understands the technique has no purpose other than buying time and minimizing injury.

In this case, the defender will probably get cut.
However, shoes offer some protection and the defender can at least keep the knife away from the torso, neck, head and hands for awhile.

In public settings, such as a hospital, many attacks take place because the aggressor feels threatened.
The posture of defending oneself from the ground, feet towards the agressor, has some psychological benefits in regards to a fear aggressor.
A fear aggressor may back off in this situation.

Sometimes self defense means surviving til help arrives.

Incidentally, MOAB has some great techniques for cops and other people who would like to keep fear-induced violence from happening and, at the same time, maintain some control over the potential aggressor.
Sometimes we might like to walk away but can't because of a responsibility for other people's safety, including the aggressor's.
The book also has some simple techniques involving initial escapes for people who have absolutely no interest in martial arts.

In any event, I doubt if the MOAB would interest the folks here.
It does, however, present a different perspective, and one that validates the ground fighting technique in question.
 
Fish 78,

Not to be offensive back, but if you think all your pressure point strikes and elbow breaks will work, or that there is NO WAY that someone could get close to an experienced operator with a shotgun you are in for a surprise.

The guy with the knife may not be very impressed with your strikes or your breaks. Don't count on ANYTHING being 100% especially in an actual armed encounter. His shoulder very much WILL be moving, perhaps as he is pumping his arm back and forth into you. His response to your efforts may just be the knife in your gut.

I think if a man had a shotgun, and the bad guy was 20 yards away in a large room with no obstructions then yeah, his bad for letting the guy get that close.

But are you saying you cannot conceive of one instance where someone may get close enough to you with your shotgun to attempt a takeaway?

Try a building entry and a door just opens to your side and WHOOPS there he is...and he wants your gun.
 
Fish 78,

Not to be offensive back, but if you think all your pressure point strikes and elbow breaks will work, or that there is NO WAY that someone could get close to an experienced operator with a shotgun you are in for a surprise.

The guy with the knife may not be very impressed with your strikes or your breaks. Don't count on ANYTHING being 100% He may just respond by burying the knife in your gut.

I think if a man had a shotgun, and the bad guy was 20 yards away in a large room with no obstructions then yeah, his bad for letting the guy get that close.

But are you telling me you cannot conceive of one instance where someone may get close enough to you with your shotgun to attempt a takeaway?
 
Originally posted by Hissho
Fish 78,

Not to be offensive back, but if you think all your pressure point strikes and elbow breaks will work, or that there is NO WAY that someone could get close to an experienced operator with a shotgun you are in for a surprise.
Didn't say that, what I said was that if the guy with the shotgun found himself pinned to the floor, he never should have been issued a weapon.

The guy with the knife may not be very impressed with your strikes or your breaks. Don't count on ANYTHING being 100% He may just respond by burying the knife in your gut.
Never said anything was 100%...difficult to bury the knife in my gut with his arm limp and dangling

I think if a man had a shotgun, and the bad guy was 20 yards away in a large room with no obstructions then yeah, his bad for letting the guy get that close. At 20 yds I would shoot him...that is about the max range for a buckshot load to keep all pellets in the kill zone.

But are you telling me you cannot conceive of one instance where someone may get close enough to you with your shotgun to attempt a takeaway?
Click to expand...
No I am familiar with the Tueller drill, but if the person in question was in yellow and didn't notice that he should go red then his trainning is lacking.
 
Originally posted by Hissho
Fish 78,

Not to be offensive back, but if you think all your pressure point strikes and elbow breaks will work, or that there is NO WAY that someone could get close to an experienced operator with a shotgun you are in for a surprise.

His shoulder very much WILL be moving,

Hisso, next time you are in the gym or just get somebody to hold a simulated knife and ask him to make slashing movements...the knife will be moving very fast indeed, his elbow will be moving less fast and the sholder will be stationary...it is the fulcrum or pivot point in a slashing attack...focus on the shoulder and neck....strike the slashing forearm with a down windmill strike and immediately follow up to the neck...its a knock out technique...so be careful

I think if a man had a shotgun, and the bad guy was 20 yards away in a large room with no obstructions then yeah, his bad for letting the guy get that close.

But are you saying you cannot conceive of one instance where someone may get close enough to you with your shotgun to attempt a takeaway?

Try a building entry and a door just opens to your side and WHOOPS there he is...and he wants your gun.
Click to expand...
If he grabs your gun, simply sit down and the muzzle of your gun will center on his torso...you know what to do then...try this technique for yourself have some grab a simulated shotgun from you...sit and notice where the simulated muzzle is pointed.
 
Fish,

The gym and a real world knife attack are two different places. I think in theory your technique sounds good, and yeah, the shoulder probably will be moving less.

But the problem is it is theory, and would be a LOT harder to pull off in reality, and more likely than not to get you seriously injured. Personally I'm not gonna screw around with pressure points in that kind of situation, thinking that his shoulder will go numb etc.


Originally posted by fish78
If he grabs your gun, simply sit down and the muzzle of your gun will center on his torso...you know what to do then...try this technique for yourself have some grab a simulated shotgun from you...sit and notice where the simulated muzzle is pointed.
Click to expand...

Right. Which is, I think, an excellent move one on one (though hard to do in a tactical situation where you don't want to jam the stick up...). It is pretty much the same move I discussed earlier..the difference being that you have a firearm and thus it makes more sense to go to the ground...you can still reach out and touch someone. BTW, I have seen a similar technique for handgun retention. I did not take issue with the technique.

My issue is with the idea that no one who is in the "right mind" in a dangerous situation can or should be surprised, or might not encounter a situation where a man could take hold of his weapon, etc. In truth, looking back I am not sure you were saying this in your post.

Sh*t happens, sometimes the damndest stuff to the best people. It makes a lot more sense to train for the times when, yes, somebody got the drop on you even though you did everything right and now you need to deal with a new problem.
 
hissho,
Did you check the link I provided? The article offers some insight into the dynamics of fighting with a knife.
 
Hey! It just hit me; this kind of thing would have been GOLD on the Sept. 11 flights! Other than that, the instuctor seems like an idiot that dummyed down someone else's ideas.
 
Posted a nice long reply and the computer says I wasn't logged in..AFTER I logged in!!

Fish,

I read the link just now. I tried earlier it didn't work.

You don't get all your combatives info from "Testosterone Magazine" do you?

The impressive credentials don't phase me. I have encountered a great deal of trainers in the LEO and tactical community who look great on paper, but never actually did anything in real life other than get some black belts and attend some courses. Note: a lot of Law Enforcement Instructor credentials can be had in 40 hour or 60 hour or 80 hour classes. Yep, about two weeks. Many military "commando" instructors did so on a short term basis 'cause the unit was just checking them out. They never tell you if the "commandos" thought what they did was garbage and never invited them back. Caveat emptor.

I question the tactics. It's still all theory, for one. Tactically speaking:

Circling the arms and going for the forearm strikes is a little contrived. Remember, important nerves and arteries are in the arm. Slashes may not kill you, but they certainly will diminish your ability to continue applying the recommended technique. HE has a far better chance of making YOUR arm go limp with a blade than you do whacking him on the shoulder. Can you say "Filet o' Fish." (Couldn't resist :D )

Good luck hitting the vagus nerve and knocking him out..remember this is a live blade, real life assault with a non-cooperative subject.

Pressure points are highly overrated in real world encounters. The ol' vagus nerve thingy works great for George Dillman against a man, relaxed, just standing there allowing him to hit him AND who desperately wants to believe that "THIS STUFF REALLY WORKS!" I doubt you will find many people of the same mind actually attacking you with a knife.

I like the part about "simply" slapping a knife wielding attacker on the ear and gouging his eye. Now, what if that just pisses him off even more and makes him decide to really cut you up 'cause you hurt him?

Forget the guy who KNOWS how to use a blade..who is LOOKING for contact with your arm to trap and cut you up and down on the way in AND out...in Filipino and Japanese styles the inside of the wrists, the inside of the upper arm and the armpit are prime targets. Circling arm strikes don't sound so good now, do they?
 
Tim is a former Navy SEAL and was attached to another first tier unit based at Ft. Bragg aftrer a demolition "accident" took him off dive status...He has been teaching military an LE personnel for about 10 yrs and the methods he describes have been tested in actual combat.

No, That is the first I have ever heard of testosterone magazine. As to the dumbing down of somebody else technique...well, very little is new and sometimes simple is better.

What I found particularly interesting was the information about the first strikes in a knife fight ALMOST always are slashes vice stabs.

The information was give for what its worth...I am not interested in changing anyone mind about how they approach combatives. It is just thoughts of somebody with a great deal of personal and trainning experience;Tim Larkin.

As I stated in my first post; I am no expert. I try to learn from those who are...I take what I believe will work from whatever source.
 
Again, what is the great deal of personal experience outside of training?

I still question the method described, particularly since it is supposedly meant for regular people, not Navy Seals, to deal with knife assaults.

I would think Seals would just shoot a guy coming at them with a knife.
 
I see.

I still question the method described, particularly since it is supposedly meant for regular people, not Navy Seals, to deal with knife assaults.

I would think Seals would just shoot a guy coming at them with a knife.
 
Originally posted by Hissho
Again, what is the great deal of personal experience outside of training?Not my personal experience, Tim's...use you imagination as to who the group at Bragg was.

I still question the method described, particularly since it is supposedly meant for regular people, not Navy Seals, to deal with knife assaults. As I said I am not trying to get you or anyone else to change your methods...just attempting to add some documentation to my initial response.

I would think Seals would just shoot a guy coming at them with a knife.
Click to expand...
I think you are correct they the SEALs would shoot the BG if at all feasible. Seals(sic) on the other hand, would just bark and clap their fins:D
 
One should not put too much credence in the title SEAL.
Having spent some time in one of these types of organizations myself, and having attended the same schools, I can only report that these guys bring a lot of determination to the equation and not necessarily anything else.
SEALS themselves have varying opinions about everything.

As regards attacking the central nervous system: in the game of chess, one can attack the king directly or one can wage a battle of attrition; it depends on the circumstances and the relationships.
Life presents more variations on the theme than we can imagine, or for which we can prepare by training.
Training represents techniques directed at specific scenarios.
A well-trained person, if exposed to a scenrio for which he has trained, will find that the technique unfolds all by itself.
This involves a big IF.
One spends thousands of hours preparing for every possible situation and then life springs a new one on him.
So, don't sweat the scenarios and the techiniques.
Rather, strive to understand the principles.
Do not expect to learn the principles from a bunch of stubborn sailors.

The shotgun and knife scenario above boils down to intent.
The person with the greater intent will prevail, regardless of technique.
 
Ken, Which units and when? Just curious,not questioning your credentials.
You are correct that resolve and mindset are a major factor in determining who will prevail in a confrontation...training doesn't hurt though. I am not advocating one system over any other, but just my thoughts and some supporting documentaion. Train and fight however you choose.
 
I attended Amphibious Warfare School while attached to 6th Force Recon, a reserve company stationed at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii.
I also attended an all-Marine jump school taught by ANGLICO and Force Recon, utilizing the Army's jump school facilities at Schofield Barracks, Hawaii.
Additionally, I had the extraordinary privilege of working off of the special operations submarine TUNNY, all in the same period, 1965-67.

FWIW, my father served as an instructor at Amphibious Warfare School, also as a Marine, in the early fifties.
In the late fifties he taught ROK Marines how to fight dirty.
He probably learned a little from them, too.
As a bit of history, he graduated from the very first American jump school, at Lakehurst, New Jersey, in 1939 as a member of the First Marine Parachute Battalion.
A guy probably shouldn't brag on his dad.

I grew up in the Marine Corps, surrounded by special ops types (some legendary) and their kids (some who went on to become legendary).
While in high school, I belonged to an Explorer post, which had as its "Den Mothers" an assortment of instructors from Marine Corps Schools, Quantico, Virginia.
I thought all Explorer Scouts did night compass swims.
Later, as an alleged adult, I served nine years in the Corps; four enlisted and five as an officer.
During my last five years, I had the opportunity to attend the Army's Rotary Wing Flight School as a Marine.
I consider this the finest school I have ever attended.
It gave me an excellent foundation which has served me well during my 32 years of flying helicopters.
I have flown EMS helicopter for the past 18 years, and presently fly over the largest EMS helicopter service area in the world.
Ask me about gunshot and knife wounds, sometime.
I studied Aikido for nine months under one of Morihei Ueshiba's four uchi deschi, received an intense 60 hours of "formal street-fighting" instruction from a school in Arizona, and have now studied judo for the past four years.
I have a concealed handgun license, which I exercise; carry a Spyderco Native; own a John Greco Persian Fighter and a Gene Osborn Heavy Dagger made to my own design and featured in an article, written by my me, in the October 2000 issue of Knives Illustrated.
People in my community know me as the fat, bald-headed guy who dresses funny. :)
 
Its OK with me if you brag on your father:D My Dad just died a month ago amd I brag about him all the time...56 missions over Germany and occupied Europe in a 6mo stretch in 1944...he was in B-17s as a waist gunner and bombadier. Your background is certainly extensive and as I said my question was out of curiosity and not meant to challenge or question your credentials. I am here to learn, and I believe I can spot good advice when I see it.
 
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