Guardians of The Lambsfoot!

[Jack Black]

Very nice indeed, and looking forward to seeing what you get next week

 

[5K Qs]

Not on my schedule for this week, and I forgot about the proposal for the 14th of each month until I'd arrived at work, but I can at least carry a lambsfoot around the house this evening in support of Lambsfoot Love! :thumbup:

(My knife was previously approved as a lambsfoot example, but today I'm not seeing much taper on the blade. Why am I suddenly assailed by doubts?? )

- GT

 

[Jack Black]

Without doubt, a great-looking Lambsfoot GT

 

[choombak]

Not on my schedule for this week, and I forgot about the proposal for the 14th of each month until I'd arrived at work, but I can at least carry a lambsfoot around the house this evening in support of Lambsfoot Love! :thumbup:
...

(My knife was previously approved as a lambsfoot example, but today I'm not seeing much taper on the blade. Why am I suddenly assailed by doubts?? )

- GT

I think the taper on this one is subtle, making it a cross "shlambsfoot" maybe?

 

[5K Qs]

i think the taper on this one is subtle, making it a cross "shlambsfoot" maybe?

- GT

ACK!! The lower-case gremlins came out of nowhere and ambushed me!
Oops, in the course of typing this edit, the gremlins may have gone back into hiding?

 

[Cambertree]

The origins and naming of the lambsfoot pattern seem like a bit of an enigma.

There's certainly quite a depth and breadth of collective knowledge here on the Porch. There's also a lot of folk who have a very good experience and understanding in using knives extensively, both in their work and recreational crafts.

So it's interesting that in trying to answer the question of how the pattern originated; why it has the name it does; and why is it that it never took off as a popular style in the US, that we have so few facts to go on.

We have had quite a bit of informed speculation and discussion which has been illuminating, but not a lot of hard information has been unearthed yet.

Without tracking over old ground in terms of the good points that have already been made, there are a couple of things I haven't really seen mentioned in this and the other Lambsfoot threads.



Looking at the blade shape what do we we have? A straight edge with tapering, non parallel spine narrowing towards the tip - but still with a recognisable 'beak' to it, maybe part way between a sheepsfoot and the long pointed, Wharncliffe tip silhouette.

But all these blade styles definitely seem to exist on a similar continuum.

Consider that the sheepfoot is definitely an old, old blade shape, going back to the Iron Age, at least, and that due to its usefulness, it's probably a common enough working knife pattern wherever it has historical roots.

I think it's not beyond the realms of possibility that people first became familiar with the benefits of that narrower, tapered blade shape - long before the 19th century 'Real Lambsfoot' - simply from those knives which were well worn and sharpened enough over the years that they took on that slightly different profile.

Here's a broken back Anglo-Saxon seax as an example, maybe a thousand years old.



And here's a knife attributed to the 1600s (top) and a modern Ken Gahagan copy (bottom).



We've all seen those well loved knives that have been sharpened almost to toothpicks. Charlie C made the astute comment once that all blades want to be speys. Well, all sheepsfoots will also become lambsfoots (for a time, anyway). Even on the 1600s knife above, you can see with sharpening, that it is starting the slow progression to become a lambsfoot profile.

I can imagine that sometimes these worn, narrower blades lying around the home, farm or workshop would have been the ones selected for use in particular tasks requiring the power of a straight edge, fine tip control and good, safe visual indexing of where the point was.

One of these tasks would have been working with smaller livestock like sheep and particularly, lambs.

I actually did a bit of reading up on some government livestock advisory websites and was surprised to read that even now apparently, around a tenth of the UK sheep herd at any one time supposedly have footrot or 'scald'.

If these figures were paralleled wherever else sheep were run, that would amount to a lot of hoof trimming, to say nothing of the other lamb marking tasks required.

Sorry if you're squeamish, but here's a visual reference of the task that would have presented many a shepherd, drover and farmer. (It's apparently of an overtrimmed hoof, but it's the least icky example I could find, and it serves its purpose.)



Now that's an adult sheep hoof, imagine how much more fit for purpose a Real Lambsfoot would be for trimming a much smaller real lamb's foot. (Sorry, couldn't resist it.)

Early Australian knife and tool catalogues and ads from the mid-19th century and earlier, rarely specify knife types beyond 'pocket, pen, sports and ladies knives.'

Later ones start to equate particular knife patterns with the jobs they might be suited to or specifically designed for.

You may have noticed the description on the Baker Lambsfoot above.

Here's some other task specific tools (from the 1939 William Jno. Baker catalogue) featuring both recognisable Lambsfoot type blade profiles (with slight blade taper out to the tip) and more of an Ettrick/'Peach Pruner' style blade shape.



Some earlier 1924 catalogue examples. (From the above, it seems the Ettrick type blade later became the most popular shape.)



And an expanded pic of one Jack posted earlier.



So, as far as the theory that the lambsfoot did not gain popularity in the US because the prevalence of hunting and skinning tasks for the common person, necessitated a bellied drop point or clip blade, I think that's spot on.

The same thing applied in Australia, where the Bunny knife among others was king. But the fact that Lambsfoot knives have their established niche in Australia is not only because of the colonial trade ties to Britain (which is also probably why they turn up from time to time in Canada) but that they were marketed as a task oriented pattern related to sheep farming.

I also think that the Sheepsfoot gained popularity over the Lambsfoot, because most thrifty country folk in the US, Australia and Britain, when faced with a choice between either pattern would choose 'the one that has more steel in the blade, because it'll last longer'.

So, this has been a long post, and if you've read this far, I guess you, like myself also enjoy a good session of Porch debate and conjecture - which, whether you agree or disagree, I hope this may stimulate. I hope I haven't strayed too far from the original intent of the thread.

What do you think?

One other thing I've been curious about, and for which I have no answer, is, were the 'Real Lambfoot' etched blades from a single source? I know I've seen them on different makers' knives, but they still may have bought the blades from the same place.

Another theory I had, is the Lambsfoot may have been a pattern introduced to compete with the Wharncliffe, which I'm guessing may have been a regional variant adapted and popularised by Joseph Rodgers. Reading between the lines, I had always assumed the naming of that pattern had something to do with a gesture to the Earl of Wharncliffe for laying the ground for Joseph Rodgers to obtain their Royal Warrant perhaps?

But, I guess that's fodder for another thread...

 

[Jack Black]

- GT

ACK!! The lower-case gremlins came out of nowhere and ambushed me!
Oops, in the course of typing this edit, the gremlins may have gone back into hiding?

It's related to mathematics GT! - : + D + :+ D = :d :d, : + D + : + D + : + thumbup + : = :thumbup:

The code that makes up is too short to make a post and needs to be extended :thumbup:

:thumbup:

 

[Jack Black]

Thank you for a most fascinating and scholarly post Chin, wonderfully presented, and very enjoyable to read. You make some excellent points, a really great analysis. Your Australian perspective has also been an added bonus to the previous discussions we've had I think. Well researched sir

I also think that the Sheepsfoot gained popularity over the Lambsfoot, because most thrifty country folk in the US, Australia and Britain, when faced with a choice between either pattern would choose 'the one that has more steel in the blade, because it'll last longer'.

That's a very good point. I also think the Lambsfoot may not have been marketed in the US, or to a much lesser extent, because there was a clear demand for other blade styles, and because it came along later, and when eventually (after the introduction of the McKinley Tariff) some Sheffield cutlery firms switched their attention from the US to Australia. I have certainly not seen any examples in any of the old US trade catalogues I've seen.

One other thing I've been curious about, and for which I have no answer, is, were the 'Real Lambfoot' etched blades from a single source? I know I've seen them on different makers' knives, but they still may have bought the blades from the same place.

One firm must have started the pattern, but as with other patterns, it seems to have been taken up quite quickly by other firms and cutlers. Taylor's Eye Witness (Needham, Veall, and Tyzack) have always produced a lot of Lambsfoot knives, and their catalogue inclusions of it are the earliest I've been able to find so far, but I think there's still a lot of research to be done there. The blades would have been hand-forged though, and I don't think they could have come from the same place.

Another theory I had, is the Lambsfoot may have been a pattern introduced to compete with the Wharncliffe, which I'm guessing may have been a regional variant adapted and popularised by Joseph Rodgers. Reading between the lines, I had always assumed the naming of that pattern had something to do with a gesture to the Earl of Wharnclife for laying the ground for Joseph Rodgers to obtain their Royal Warrant perhaps?

Another interesting theory my friend You're quite correct about the origins of the Wharncliffe Knife. As I'm sure you know, that blade shape is considerably older than the knife, and it was used by Joseph Rodgers on their Norfolk Knife, which pre-dates the Wharncliffe, and which they continued to market and sell at the same time (see pics below from the same Rodgers catalogue). Other companies made Wharncliffe Knives, and many used the blade, which has only relatively recently become known as the Wharncliffe blade. Personally, I doubt the 'Real Lambfoot' was introduced to compete with the Wharncliffe.

 

[r8shell]

Thanks, Cambertree and Jack for the research and thoughtful posting. Perhaps this sounds foolish, but I always assumed they were called lamb foots because the short downward slope toward the tip kind of looked like a lamb's hoof. A sheep is bigger and taller than a lamb, so the taller blade would be a sheep foot. I feel a little silly, it's seeming more likely that these are task oriented knives. Or maybe it's both.

5K Qs: The system lets you post capital letters, but not in ALL CAPS.

 

[netguy1999]

Chin, all I can say is WOW! Thank you for your post. That answers a lot of questions I had as well as giving a great history of the usage. I always like to know what different blade shapes are historically and presently used for.

Although I don't yet have a lambsfoot knife in my possession, I do have one on order and hope to order another soon. Your post just adds to my desire to add more of these to my collection. If I could find a Rodgers I*XL Barlow with a lambsfoot blade, I'd snap that up. But that's half the fun - the hunt.

 

[Cambertree]

Thanks, Cambertree and Jack for the research and thoughtful posting. Perhaps this sounds foolish, but I always assumed they were called lamb foots because the short downward slope toward the tip kind of looked like a lamb's hoof. A sheep is bigger and taller than a sheep, so the taller blade would be a sheep foot. I feel a little silly, it's seeming more likely that these are task oriented knives. Or maybe it's both.

Not foolish at all r8shell, I'd heard this too but thought it might be the other way around, the sheepfoot being an older pattern. That is, it might have been named for it's similarity to a sheeps hoof profile, and then the lambsfoot as a smaller version in relation to the larger blade pattern.

But then you've got that curious symmetry of both patterns being the favoured tools for trimming sheep and lambs hoofs which must have been a very common and demanding task, especially for those with large flocks.

Edit: Just to throw something else in here too - I'm also reminded of Jolipapa's post where he said both sheepsfoot and lambsfoot knives in France are referred to as 'London patterns'.


More questions and enigmas!

 

[Jack Black]

Thanks, Cambertree and Jack for the research and thoughtful posting. Perhaps this sounds foolish, but I always assumed they were called lamb foots because the short downward slope toward the tip kind of looked like a lamb's hoof. A sheep is bigger and taller than a sheep, so the taller blade would be a sheep foot. I feel a little silly, it's seeming more likely that these are task oriented knives. Or maybe it's both.

Not foolish at all r8shell

If I could find a Rodgers I*XL Barlow with a lambsfoot blade, I'd snap that up. But that's half the fun - the hunt.

You mean a Wostenholm IXL Barlow with Lambsfoot blade? The Eggiington Group, who own many of the old Sheffield marks, produce Lambsfoot Barlows with both both IXL and Rodgers bolsters. I found an IXL Barlow Lambsfoot the other day, probably from the 70's I would think, but what a mess - rather nasty plastic 'stag' covers and a very worn blade

Look forward to seeing the Lambsfoot you have on order

I've been searching through the old catalogue images I have, and the earliest Lambsfoot knives I've found so far are in the 1837 TEW catalogue - that's actually a bit earlier than I'd previously thought.

 

[Jack Black]

Not foolish at all r8shell, I'd heard this too but thought it might be the other way around, the sheepfoot being an older pattern. That is, it might have been named for it's similarity to a sheeps hoof profile, and then the lambsfoot as a smaller version in relation to the larger blade.

But then you've got that curious symmetry of both patterns being the favoured tools for trimming sheep and lambs hoofs which must have been a very common and demanding task, especially for those with large flocks.

More questions and enigmas!

We were posting at the same time my friend

 

[Cambertree]

We were posting at the same time my friend :thumbup:

No worries at all

Thanks for your kind words and insights, as always, Jack - and yours too John.

I wanted to add that I didn't really have any basis for that Lambsfoot/Wharncliffe competition conjecture. I wondered what you guys might come back with on that though, having a better idea of the chronologies of competing manufacturers than me.

Although that curious etch almost seems to imply there was a fake or competing Lambsfoot on the market. I might be reading too much into it though.

r8shell, one of the pieces of info that turned me toward the task oriented name possibility is that even now, if you start googling 'footrot knife sheep' and other similar terms it doesn't take long before you start coming to rural farm supply businesses that hold Lambsfoot knives for that particular purpose. I won't post any links because I'm sure they're not BF supporters, but I got Irish, UK and Aussie farm tool vendors all selling them!

 

[Jack Black]

I agree with Chin as regards the naming of the knife. the Sheepsfoot goes back, at least to the Iron Age. I'm far less sure how long it has been called that name, but certainly it has been in use for a long time, and was used far more widely than by farmers trimming sheep's hooves. I doubt that the name and shape of the blade are entirely coincidental - even less so with the much later Lambsfoot.

It's interesting that the Lambsfoot is so widespread among traditional knife users here, having been like that at least since I was a boy. I'd have to check with Wright's, but bearing in mind how many different varieties of Lambsfoot they make, compared to clips or spears for example, it would seem to be their best-selling pattern. They tell me they mainly sell to farmers, and certainly if I go into agricultural areas, it is the knife I see stocked in hardware stores and feed-supply shops, often to the exclusion of all other patterns. It's also very popular with gardeners, and CK who have a large interest in that market, even produce a 'Real Lamb Foot', which is certainly not a Lambsfoot, but I assume they think it is worth having the etch on the blade. Of course, all of us here know just how useful a blade it is, so I suppose its popularity among genuine users should not be a surprise

EDIT - Just adding a pic of the CK 'Real Lamb Foot' - which I regularly pass up!

 

[Cambertree]

I've been searching through the old catalogue images I have, and the earliest Lambsfoot knives I've found so far are in the 1837 TEW catalogue - that's actually a bit earlier than I'd previously thought.

Ah, brilliant, I knew something would turn up!

Looking forward to hearing more on these.

 

[Jack Black]

I'm sorry, I just did it again!

Although that curious etch almost seems to imply there was a fake or competing Lambsfoot on the market. I might be reading too much into it though.

Some of the old Sheffield knives have 'Real Knife' stamped on the blade, and of course there are the 'Real Barlow' knives! Perhaps the word just had slightly different connotations to what we think of today. I like the etch, even though I find it odd that it either says 'Real Lamb Foot' or 'Real Lambfoot', but I have never seen one yet which reads 'Real Lambsfoot'!

 

[Jack Black]

I've been searching through the old catalogue images I have, and the earliest Lambsfoot knives I've found so far are in the 1837 TEW catalogue - that's actually a bit earlier than I'd previously thought.

Ah, brilliant, I knew something would turn up!

Looking forward to hearing more on these. :thumbup:

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to apologise for this - and revise my thinking again - Taylor's Eye Witness have some catalogue scans listed on their site as being from the 1837 catalogue - http://taylors-eye-witness.co.uk/about-us/ However, on closer inspection, they appear to be from the 1897 catalogue, as I'd previously thought :grumpy:

 

[WhittlinAway]

Chin and Jack, what a great exchange of information! I intend to revisit it again this evening when I have more time to read it closely and absorb all the information.

In the mean time, I just noticed that A. Wright has a "Lambfoot blade pocket knife with pruner handle" posted on their site. I don't recall seeing it there before, but it's quite possible that it's been there all along. From their description:

This is a variant of the standard lambfoot pattern pocket knife. The blade is held in a slim and curved handle making it slimmer than the standard model and less bulky to carry in a trouser pocket.

Does anyone have one of these? If so, I'd be curious to see a photo of one side by side with their standard lambsfoot. From the photos that they have, it's a bit hard to ascertain how pronounced a difference there is in the handle's shape and thickness.

 

[netguy1999]

Not foolish at all r8shell :thumbup:



You mean a Wostenholm IXL Barlow with Lambsfoot blade? The Eggiington Group, who own many of the old Sheffield marks, produce Lambsfoot Barlows with both both IXL and Rodgers bolsters. I found an IXL Barlow Lambsfoot the other day, probably from the 70's I would think, but what a mess - rather nasty plastic 'stag' covers and a very worn blade

Look forward to seeing the Lambsfoot you have on order :thumbup:

Sorry, yes, I meant Wostenholm. Sometimes I type and hit "Post" too fast... Actually, I'm in talks with Michael May to have a Barlow lambsfoot made for me. I'm quite excited at the prospect.