Guardians of The Lambsfoot!

[Jack Black]

Chin and Jack, what a great exchange of information! I intend to revisit it again this evening when I have more time to read it closely and absorb all the information.

In the mean time, I just noticed that A. Wright has a "Lambfoot blade pocket knife with pruner handle" posted on their site. I don't recall seeing it there before, but it's quite possible that it's been there all along. From their description:

This is a variant of the standard lambfoot pattern pocket knife. The blade is held in a slim and curved handle making it slimmer than the standard model and less bulky to carry in a trouser pocket.

Does anyone have one of these? If so, I'd be curious to see a photo of one side by side with their standard lambsfoot. From the photos that they have, it's a bit hard to ascertain how pronounced a difference there is in the handle's shape and thickness.

Thanks I think they may just be referring to the Swayback frame. Their website could be be substantially improved to say the least

Sorry, yes, I meant Wostenholm. Sometimes I type and hit "Post" too fast... Actually, I'm in talks with Michael May to have a Barlow lambsfoot made for me. I'm quite excited at the prospect.

Don't we all? I hope you get something nice

 

[Cambertree]

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to apologise for this - and revise my thinking again - Taylor's Eye Witness have some catalogue scans listed on their site as being from the 1837 catalogue - http://taylors-eye-witness.co.uk/about-us/ However, on closer inspection, they appear to be from the 1897 catalogue, as I'd previously thought :grumpy:

No apologies necessary, mate - it does indeed say 1837.

I had my hopes up as I haven't seen a lot of catalogues predating the 1890s. The excellent Smith's Key you have posted being a notable exception (although it's not a catalogue per se).

Very interesting to read your comments on the Lambsfoot actually being the predominant rural pattern, at least in the North. I don't think I've seen you post that info before; at least it's new to me.

It seems there's a whole budget workhorse tier of Lambsfoots that are still popular along with that CK you showed - there's also those Whitby and Co's and you could probably put those plastic handled TEWs in that category as well. I noticed some of the rural farm tool suppliers have their own 'SFO' versions of the TEWs.

Australian eyes are similarly conditioned to the clip blade Barlow and short bolstered Bunny knife as being the standard rural pocket knife. It took me a long time to adjust to seeing speys and sheepsfoots on the pattern. I was kind of shocked to learn that a spearpoint was the 'Real Barlow'!

 

[Jack Black]

Thank you my friend, I am going to have to see if I can get over to the archives section of Sheffield City Library or see what they have in the Hawley Collection at Kelham Island. The problem is, when I visit Sheffield, I generally have other things to do. It's a shame more catalogues aren't available online.

I've often thought the stainless 'SFO's and the stainless TEW's look like they were made in the same factory!

Thanks again for a most interesting discussion

 

[Cambertree]

I am going to have to see if I can get over to the archives section of Sheffield City Library or see what they have in the Hawley Collection at Kelham Island...

It's a shame more catalogues aren't available online.

I've often thought the stainless 'SFO's and the stainless TEW's look like they were made in the same factory!

Thanks again for a most interesting discussion :thumbup:

Always a pleasure, my friend. Thank you.

I'm really looking forward to having a look around some of those archival troves and museums too. The remark on the Taylors Eye Witness website seemed to infer that they had more material they would be progressively digitising. I wonder if they have earlier catalogues?

It actually kind of gives me a warm fuzzy feeling to know that there's still carbon steel and delrin traditional knives like this TEW out there, being bought for less than £15 and used by farming people who couldn't care less about their history or collectibility, but just want a good tool that does the job well.



Over here, while you still see a lot of belt sheaths in country towns, they mostly contain Leathermans...

 

[Jack Black]

I'm really looking forward to having a look around some of those archival troves and museums too. The remark on the Taylors Eye Witness website seemed to infer that they had more material they would be progressively digitising. I wonder if they have earlier catalogues?

I'm looking forward to it too The old TEW factory still stands, but they've recently moved out of it. I do hope they put some earlier catalogues online if they have any, but I don't think they've updated that page for a few years now.

Cue to show this

 

[herder]

Reading this great thread with so much wonderful information from Jack, Cambertree, and others has forced me off the couch and onto the porch. Upon going through the recent discussions it led me to investigate the Sheep Foot and Lambs Foot models from an American perspective. While clip and spear point blades have certainly dominated over others in the United States since early on, Lamb Foot blades have been there along side the more common blades. Congress patterns have been seen more than any others with Sheep Foot blades and enclosed is a picture of a "Northfield Knife Co." Congress pattern knife from 1865 with two Sheep Foot styled blades. After going through many American knife company catalogs, it appears that U. S. cutlery makers often used the term "Sheep Foot", but not "Lambs Foot". The smaller Lambs Foot blades were just incorporated under the name "Sheep Foot". Also interesting are the many different uses for a Sheep Foot blade in America and several are shown below which include, "Scout Knife", "New England Whaler", "Barlow", "Horticultural", and "Cattle/Stockman". Needless to say that the Sheep Foot blade has thrived in the United States since the early days of American cutlery.

 

[supratentorial]

Great scans (as usual!), herder :thumbup: Aside from the taper from tang to tip, they are very similar. Both are very useful. I wonder if the taper on the lambsfoot may have some ergonomic advantage since the handle will be slightly raised (for a more natural grip) when the edge is parallel to cutting surface --just speculation though.

 

[herder]

Double post.

 

[herder]

Thanks supratentorial. Yes, the American Sheep Foot blades tend to run parallel from tang to tip as opposed to tapered on many of the Sheffield blades.

 

[Cambertree]

Excellent scans Herder, thanks for that.

That Northfield 294 Congress is quite a find. That small straight edge secondary is about the first US made blade I've seen that could qualify as a Lambsfoot type profile - although it is definitely close to the Wharncliffe end of the continuum.

Northfield is a particularly interesting example as they employed many migrant English working cutlers who, I understand, arrived in the US during the 1840s and '50s.

As one could reasonably expect that they would have brought with them working knowledge of all the patterns that were in vogue at the time in Sheffield - and to have produced them for Northfield and Waterville Cutlery Co., perhaps you have found an early cut off point - and the Real Lambsfoot with tapered spine may have come after that time.

Jake, yes I think you may be right about the Lambsfoot edge angle allowing all the advantages of straight edge power cutting on a workbench or table while still giving some knuckle clearance.

Here is a photo of the knife I was issued with on my first day at my first full time job at a large English paperback book publishing house in the mid '90s.



It's actually a well-worn leatherworkers 'Boot knife' but that blade profile is very similar to the Lambsfoot. And yes, one of the reasons why it was the standard Storemans knife of the day, was it gave good knuckle clearance cutting cardboard on benches, as well as power in sweeping cuts, fine tip control and point safety. Sound familiar?

As an aside, I was quite tickled to see this exact fixed blade pattern in the 1897 Taylor's Eye Witness catalogue, Jack posted a link to.



Oh and Jack, that cover art and knife image you posted is just so cool on so many different levels!

 

[Jack Black]

Reading this great thread with so much wonderful information from Jack, Cambertree, and others has forced me off the couch and onto the porch. Upon going through the recent discussions it led me to investigate the Sheep Foot and Lambs Foot models from an American perspective. While clip and spear point blades have certainly dominated over others in the United States since early on, Lamb Foot blades have been there along side the more common blades. Congress patterns have been seen more than any others with Sheep Foot blades and enclosed is a picture of a "Northfield Knife Co." Congress pattern knife from 1865 with two Sheep Foot styled blades. After going through many American knife company catalogs, it appears that U. S. cutlery makers often used the term "Sheep Foot", but not "Lambs Foot". The smaller Lambs Foot blades were just incorporated under the name "Sheep Foot". Also interesting are the many different uses for a Sheep Foot blade in America and several are shown below which include, "Scout Knife", "New England Whaler", "Barlow", "Horticultural", and "Cattle/Stockman". Needless to say that the Sheep Foot blade has thrived in the United States since the early days of American cutlery.

Great to see you here my friend, it's been too long Yes, the Sheepsfoot blade has been seen in the US for a long time, as evidenced in these photos of knives taken from the Arabia steamboat in 1856.



We also see among these knives, a couple of Barlows with the 'Short Beak' blade, similar to those seen in Smith's Key of 1816.



Coping blades have also been common.

Aside from the taper from tang to tip, they are very similar. Both are very useful. I wonder if the taper on the lambsfoot may have some ergonomic advantage since the handle will be slightly raised (for a more natural grip) when the edge is parallel to cutting surface --just speculation though.

I find both Sheepsfoot and Lambsfoot blades useful for different jobs. The slimmer blade profile of the Lambsfoot is useful, but so is the (generally) steeper angle of the point. In terms of the development of the blade, it may also be worth considering that both Sheepsfoot and Lambsfoot knives may have been built by cutlers on the same frame (as is the case at A.Wright's today I believe), which means that the width of the different blades would have to be the same, or similar at the tang (and only at the tang). By adding a taper to the Lambsfoot, you get a knife with a narrower point than the Sheepsfoot, but retain much of its strength, and you have the versatility of being able to use an existing frame.

Thanks supratentorial. Yes, the American Sheep Foot blades tend to run parallel from tang to tip as opposed to tapered on many of the Sheffield blades.

Don't Sheffield Sheepsfoot blades also run parallel? Sheepsfoot and coping blades run parallel, classic Lambsfoot blades have a taper.

Northfield is a particularly interesting example as they employed many migrant English working cutlers who, I understand, arrived in the US during the 1840s and '50s.

As one could reasonably expect that they would have brought with them working knowledge of all the patterns that were in vogue at the time in Sheffield - and to have produced them for Northfield and Waterville Cutlery Co., perhaps you have found an early cut off point - and the Real Lambsfoot with tapered spine may have come after that time.

That's an important point I think Chin, and adds to the argument that the Lambsfoot pattern developed slightly later

Jake, yes I think you may be right about the Lambsfoot edge angle allowing all the advantages of straight edge power cutting on a workbench or table while still giving some knuckle clearance.

Here is a photo of the knife I was issued with on my first day at my first full time job at a large English paperback book publishing house in the mid '90s.



It's actually a leatherworkers 'Boot knife' but that blade profile is quintessential Lambsfoot. And yes, one of the reasons why it was the standard Storemans knife of the day, was it gave good knuckle clearance cutting cardboard on benches, as well as power in sweeping cuts, fine tip control and point safety. Sound familiar?

As an aside, I was quite tickled to see this exact lambsfoot style fixed blade pattern in the 1897 Taylor's Eye Witness catalogue, Jack posted a link to!



Oh and Jack, that cover art and knife image you posted is just so cool on so many different levels!

Jake's point is very valid I think :thumbup:

I commonly see Boot Knives of that type Chin, and they are very versatile. This image may be clearer. It emphasises Jake's point, but I do think it is very different to a Lambsfoot


Thanks for the kind words my friend

I'll just add a bit more Lambsfoot content One of the knives I'm carrying today

 

[herder]

Thanks Cambertree, and I have certainly enjoyed your information and input within this thread.

 

[herder]

Thanks Jack and it feels good to participate at some level again.
That is such a fantastic picture of the group of knives from the Arabia ship and I have often thought about how incredible it would be to be able to inspect those knives in person. The picture is almost a tease.

With so many different knives, patterns, and blades, it sure makes it difficult sometimes to precisely quantify some models to an exact designation. Some are fairly obvious, but many sure seem to fall into that old gray zone. The Lamb Foot and Sheep foot blades appear (to me at least) to blur the lines some what. It also appears that time and different makers put their own spin on what a model or blade should look like. I agree that most of the Sheep foot blades run straight or parallel, and that most of the Lamb Foot blades run at a taper, but these rules seem to bend with the wind as well. Enclosed are two Sheffield examples, A Sheep Foot from Rodgers, and a Lamb Foot from Taylor. The Sheep foot blade has a slight taper, while the Lamb Foot blade runs nearly straight, go figure.
Regardless, I have sure enjoyed this thread and all the nuances involved.

 

[Jack Black]

If you're ever in Kansas City, the knives taken from the Arabia are on display in the museum there - http://1856.com/arabias-story/the-arabia-museum/

Those are two great scans, can I ask what the dates are? You are quite right about the blades, extremely interesting. Both beautiful knives too

 

[AlwaysTomboy]

Just popping in to thank everyone for sharing so much knowledge and info here. Totally fascinated by the conversation and learning lots. I didn't know that a lambsfoot blade existed before I saw this thread and it turns out my questions about the origin and functional benefits and such have already been answered before I had a chance to ask. Love that.

& That photo of the knives from the Arabia is especially amazing. Seriously cool.

 

[pholder]

Please allow me to introduce myself, almost sounds like a song. my name is Troy, I live in Northern California. Love family, fishing and pocketknives. I have plenty of 1 handed folders. Several years ago I started down the traditional road and have not looked back. many patterns, many sizes. favorite length is about 3.5 long closed. Prefer bone or wood and carbon steel. love the smell of carbon and the character of its properties, patina always changing like a living entity of sorts. now then I must confess, after much reading of this lambs foot style I hold everyone here responsible for my newest acquisition of a new A. WRiGHT and SONS lambs foot in Ebony wood. Wow, how I enjoy this one. The spring was a bit stiff so I have been working it and removing the buffing compound.So comfortable in the hand and no matter how or what grip I use it just feels like a natural extension of my hand. So with a heartfelt thank you and a bit of rambling i am now off to enjoy my new companion. Also I must admit I enjoy the posts and the wealth of knowledge that I have found here.
Thanks for listening, Troy

 

[Cambertree]

Nice one AlwaysTomboy and Troy, good to see you here.

I'm constantly amazed at both the depth of knowledge, and the generosity of spirit shown here on the Porch.

That treasure hoard of pocket cutlery from the Arabia is an amazing snapshot in time. I spend ages poring over it every time I see it.

The west coast of Victoria is known as the Shipwreck Coast, and over 600 mostly British ships from the days of sail, have their final resting place there.

I've made a few road trips out that way to examine the maritime museums and local historical societies for salvaged pocketknives on display, and have made some interesting finds, but no identifiable Lambsfoots, I'm afraid - at least in those exhibits from the 1870s. After a hundred years in salt water their condition is nothing like the Arabia hoard, but viewing the surviving pieces has given me absolute confidence in the durability of both sambar stag antler and ebony as handle materials.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipwreck_Coast

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loch_Ard_(ship)

But that's something for another post or thread - I'd better let us get back to Lambsfoots, before I get into trouble!

One last recommendation AlwaysTomboy and Troy - there's some really great reading in this series if you haven't already seen it (those threads should really be stickied IMHO) -

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1229530-The-Dairy-Maids-of-Porter-Brook-(Part-1)

 

[lambertiana]

Please allow me to introduce myself, almost sounds like a song. my name is Troy, I live in Northern California. Love family, fishing and pocketknives. I have plenty of 1 handed folders. Several years ago I started down the traditional road and have not looked back. many patterns, many sizes. favorite length is about 3.5 long closed. Prefer bone or wood and carbon steel. love the smell of carbon and the character of its properties, patina always changing like a living entity of sorts. now then I must confess, after much reading of this lambs foot style I hold everyone here responsible for my newest acquisition of a new A. WRiGHT and SONS lambs foot in Ebony wood. Wow, how I enjoy this one. The spring was a bit stiff so I have been working it and removing the buffing compound.So comfortable in the hand and no matter how or what grip I use it just feels like a natural extension of my hand. So with a heartfelt thank you and a bit of rambling i am now off to enjoy my new companion. Also I must admit I enjoy the posts and the wealth of knowledge that I have found here.
Thanks for listening, Troy

We need to see pictures!

 

[Jack Black]

I haven't been able to stop thinking of these pics! Thanks for the great discussion guys, really enjoying it

 

[Jack Black]

Just popping in to thank everyone for sharing so much knowledge and info here. Totally fascinated by the conversation and learning lots. I didn't know that a lambsfoot blade existed before I saw this thread and it turns out my questions about the origin and functional benefits and such have already been answered before I had a chance to ask. Love that.

& That photo of the knives from the Arabia is especially amazing. Seriously cool.

Good to see you here AlwaysTomboy. I have another pic of the Arabia knives, but Photobucket is being problematic again

Please allow me to introduce myself, almost sounds like a song. my name is Troy, I live in Northern California. Love family, fishing and pocketknives. I have plenty of 1 handed folders. Several years ago I started down the traditional road and have not looked back. many patterns, many sizes. favorite length is about 3.5 long closed. Prefer bone or wood and carbon steel. love the smell of carbon and the character of its properties, patina always changing like a living entity of sorts. now then I must confess, after much reading of this lambs foot style I hold everyone here responsible for my newest acquisition of a new A. WRiGHT and SONS lambs foot in Ebony wood. Wow, how I enjoy this one. The spring was a bit stiff so I have been working it and removing the buffing compound.So comfortable in the hand and no matter how or what grip I use it just feels like a natural extension of my hand. So with a heartfelt thank you and a bit of rambling i am now off to enjoy my new companion. Also I must admit I enjoy the posts and the wealth of knowledge that I have found here.
Thanks for listening, Troy

Great to have you here Troy, congratulations on your first Lambsfoot As Lambertiana says, we need to see pics!

The west coast of Victoria is known as the Shipwreck Coast, and over 600 mostly British ships from the days of sail, have their final resting place there.

I've made a few road trips out that way to examine the maritime museums and local historical societies for salvaged pocketknives on display, and have made some interesting finds, but no identifiable Lambsfoots, I'm afraid - at least in those exhibits from the 1870s. After a hundred years in salt water their condition is nothing like the Arabia hoard, but viewing the surviving pieces has given me absolute confidence in the durability of both sambar stag antler and ebony as handle materials.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipwreck_Coast

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loch_Ard_(ship)

They must be fascinating places to visit my friend, interesting links, and good info on the elusive Lambsfoot