Hidden tang via stock removal

[120 Acres]

I just re-read your OP.

I would not use four pins. One is all you want or need. More will just weaken things.

I think he means 4 inch handle.

 

[kuraki]

Why would I want to pull the tang out after epoxying it up?

He's telling you how to fix your oversize tang hole by glass bedding the handle block. It will give you a repeatable fitup of your blade to block, which is useful when assembling with the guard and handle together, as it will allow you to disassemble the knife to shape both the guard and handle and reassemble it with everything in the same location.

Without doing this or something else to give you repeatable positioning, you're not going to be able to shape the handle and guard prior to final assembly easily, nor drill your pin hole, and likely not get everything assembled in line during final permanent glue up.

 

[Busto]

He's telling you how to fix your oversize tang hole by glass bedding the handle block. It will give you a repeatable fitup of your blade to block, which is useful when assembling with the guard and handle together, as it will allow you to disassemble the knife to shape both the guard and handle and reassemble it with everything in the same location.

Without doing this or something else to give you repeatable positioning, you're not going to be able to shape the handle and guard prior to final assembly easily, nor drill your pin hole, and likely not get everything assembled in line during final permanent glue up.

Why would I want to pull the tang out after epoxying it up?

That is exactly correct John....I'm guessing you've bedded an Rifle Action before!!!

Valknut: you want the Blade to be exactly centered in the hole or as close as possible and being able to remove the blade after this trick is helpful in finishing the blade and guard before final assembly. Very different from doing handle scales and helps to center the blade in the wood.

 

[John Cahoon]

Mr. Busto, thanks so much for that tip in #18, it's diabolically clever. I didn't get it either til kuraki replied. I guess a pretty thick layer of vaseline, inserting the tang gently into the epoxy so it doesn't get rubbed off. A couple of more questions if I may: should we grind the notches in the tang prior to this or after or does it matter much? What kind of solvent should be used to reliably remove the vaseline from inside once the tang is pulled out?

 

[kuraki]

Vaseline would work. I wouldn't grind any notches until final assembly or you'll mechanically lock it in place. Also make sure your tang is tapered on all sides so it will actually come out. After curing your epoxy bed will be resistant to any of the organic solvents that would remove the Vaseline so acetone or alcohol. I would actually just stick a file or something down the hole prior to final glue up and score the bedding a bit for a rock solid joint.

But, being such a tight fit, I'd mostly only be worried about getting the release agent out around the mouth of the hole so your final glue up will seal everything in, because the pin and being captured on all sides is going to provide most of your mechanical support, not the new thin layer of epoxy.

ETA: I don't think any of this is an ideal way to build a hidden tang, but a repair to make best of a wallowed out hole fwiw. If I were bedding a block for a take down or something, this last bit about the release agent wouldn't be a concern because it's meant to come apart. Broaching a good fitting tang slot, at least on the top and bottom and using alignment pins is I think a better way to do this from the start.

 

[Busto]

This is a trick to repair an over size tang hole so that you can get maximum support it's not meant to be a regular operation only necessary when you broach the tang hole to large. I generally drill and broach an under size hole and then carefully taper the tang.

Acetone or Denatured Alcohol on a cotton swab (I super glue the swab to a scrap piece of steel narrow enough to fit the hole). If you get the mouth of the hole clean You will get a nice secure epoxy bond on final glue up.

I have used Johnson Paste Wax before with good results.

 

[Justin Schmidt]

Ok I get what your saying busto. Thank you for the in depth response John. I actually haven't even gotten the tang to fully seat. But trying to create an epoxy seat seems kind of daunting. The piece of maple is big enough that I could cut it in half and start over with the other half. Which is what I may do.
How should I fit the guard? Get it right and epoxy it?

 

[Justin Schmidt]

Gentleman I believe I am lost in the sauce.
Grabbed a new block. This is it marked out. The 15n20 stock is only .120 thick. Should I use an 1/8 drill bit to drill the holes for the tang? I cut out and drilled the guard before I realized "I have no freaking idea what I'm doing."

Tried drilling some holes in a line. Sounded good in theory bit I have no file small enough to remove the material in between. Scrap that.
Here is the piece of wood in currently on

Marked center and the black lines are the width of the riccasso.
Don't worry about the other lines.
Feel like I'm back in high school getting taught algebra 2. I just can't seem to grasp how to do this.

 

[i4Marc]

valknut,

Ok, take a breath. Let's walk through this. Do you have a pair of digital calipers? If not, run to the hardware store or Harbor Freight and pick up an inexpensive pair. It will make your life worth living. You will also need a calculator to do the simple math if you don't trust doing it on paper. Get a small machinist's vise too if you don't have one.

We should talk about tang design at another time.

Place your block of handle material with what will be the side of the handle facing up. Lay your blade on top, positioned how it will be when the knife is done. Keep in mind any guard or spacer material that will be between the handle and the ricasso and space accordingly. Now trace the tang profile onto the handle block. You can use pencil, masking tape or whatever. Make sure you have enough room around the tang profile to execute the handle dimensions you have designed for the knife. It doesn't hurt to transfer your handle shape to the block as well. But for now we are mainly concerned with the tang. Indicate where the guard or spacers meet the handle block and draw that angle with a straight line. Make sure that the face of the handle block that will meet the guard or spacers is sanded FLAT, not necessarily perpendicular to the top and bottom edges, just that the surface is flat.

Now, turn the block up with the guard side up. Use your calipers (set to decimal inches) to measure the width of the block, divide by two and scribe a centerline. I don't know the dimensions of your block but we'll use 2" square for our examples. Next, set your calipers to the width of your block and subtract .120" and divide by two. Using our 2" square as our example, we get .94". Set your calipers to that number and scribe a parallel line to the centerline from each side, left and right, to establish the width of the tang. Use a small machinist's square or similar to transfer the front of your tang drawing across the face of your handle block. So you have the top and bottom of the tang established as well. You should now have the entire cross section of your tang drawn out on the face of the handle block. If you will be using an 1/8" twist drill to drill the holes, make a small mark 1/16" in from the top and bottom of the scribed tang slot. This will be the center of the drill dimension. Center punch these markings on the centerline. Add additional punch marks if you will be drilling more holes. Do NOT put additional holes too close together because the drill will wander into an adjacent hole and at the very least frustrate you, it might also break a bit that thin in the hole. Now you're really having fun.

Ok, now that the hole locations are punched you are ready to go to the drill press. I would suggest getting the shortest 1/8" drill bit you have and chucking it up as far into the chuck as it will go. I know it's not good to clamp down on the flutes but have an 1/8" bit set aside for this task. If you use one of those extra long bits it will flex while drilling and your holes will wander all over the map resulting in crooked handles. Especially if you have a wood block with hard and soft grain structures, the bit will want to avoid the hard grain and scoot over to the soft grain (path of least resistance, etc.). You want as stiff a bit as you can get to make the pilot holes. That's why you want as much bit tucked up into the chuck (within reason) as you can, to stiffen the bit. Lightly clamp your handle block in the machinist's vise. Chuck up a longer drill bit or straight piece of rod for this part. Start with one of the holes at either end of the tang slot. Position the vise with the handle block behind the bit so you can see the tang profile you marked on the side of the block. Loosen the block in the vise so it barely holds the piece. Adjust the angle of the block so that the drill or rod is parallel to one of the tang lines. Tighten the vise. Insert your short bit, align with punch mark on top for that side of the tang and drill the pilot hole. Adjust angle for the other edge and drill pilot hole. Drill additional center holes at appropriate angles for their position. Once the pilot holes are drilled, go back and deepen the holes with your longer bits. They should follow the pilot holes without problems. Use a long rod to test the depth of the holes to make sure you are deep enough and that you haven't overshot your depth, and to confirm that your holes are straight.

Next you need to hog out the hole. Start by using a sharp chisel to outline and clean up the face of the hole. Hogging out a hole that narrow will be a pain because you are limited in the kinds of tools you can get to fit in the hole. Make yourself a custom broach for these narrow slots. Sawzall blades and drywall saws can work well. Small chainsaw files might barely fit but I doubt it. In any case, you have to get all that webbing out. Keep digging and test fitting the tang until it fits. Keep checking that the blade is straight to the handle block as you go. It helps to work with a block with generous dimensions so you can compensate for slightly crooked blocks.

Once the tang is seated to the proper depth you will fit up your spacers and guard to the ricasso. Drop the assembly into your handle block and tune the fit to the handle block by adjusting the angle of the block face until all light gaps are closed up. Make every effort to keep mating surfaces FLAT.

When the fit is perfect and without gaps, take the blade/handle assembly and lay the knife on its side with the ricasso propped up on a flat and level block like a 1-2-3 block or piece of micarta etc. with the blade and handle suspended in air. You want to have the ricasso and blade edge level and parallel to your table top/surface plate. Using a pencil on top of a block of wood that puts the pencil lead even with the cutting edge, establish a line around the handle block. This line should be in line with the cutting edge, not necessarily in line with the center of the handle block. Now when you start shaping your handle you will have a centerline from which to work. As you work, shaping the handle, use a contour gauge to compare one side of the handle to the other.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

My error, I thought I saw 4 pin when it said 4in. Carry on.

 

[RedFury]

Is this group helpful or what? Great thread. Just helping somebody out.

 

[120 Acres]

My error, I thought I saw 4 pin when it said 4in. Carry on.

As did I. Had to go back and re-read and look at the pics to put it together. Funny how the mind works sometime.

 

[AlaskanHunter]

valknut,

Ok, take a breath. Let's walk through this. Do you have a pair of digital calipers? If not, run to the hardware store or Harbor Freight and pick up an inexpensive pair. It will make your life worth living. You will also need a calculator to do the simple math if you don't trust doing it on paper. Get a small machinist's vise too if you don't have one.

We should talk about tang design at another time.

Place your block of handle material with what will be the side of the handle facing up. Lay your blade on top, positioned how it will be when the knife is done. Keep in mind any guard or spacer material that will be between the handle and the ricasso and space accordingly. Now trace the tang profile onto the handle block. You can use pencil, masking tape or whatever. Make sure you have enough room around the tang profile to execute the handle dimensions you have designed for the knife. It doesn't hurt to transfer your handle shape to the block as well. But for now we are mainly concerned with the tang. Indicate where the guard or spacers meet the handle block and draw that angle with a straight line. Make sure that the face of the handle block that will meet the guard or spacers is sanded FLAT, not necessarily perpendicular to the top and bottom edges, just that the surface is flat.

Now, turn the block up with the guard side up. Use your calipers (set to decimal inches) to measure the width of the block, divide by two and scribe a centerline. I don't know the dimensions of your block but we'll use 2" square for our examples. Next, set your calipers to the width of your block and subtract .120" and divide by two. Using our 2" square as our example, we get .94". Set your calipers to that number and scribe a parallel line to the centerline from each side, left and right, to establish the width of the tang. Use a small machinist's square or similar to transfer the front of your tang drawing across the face of your handle block. So you have the top and bottom of the tang established as well. You should now have the entire cross section of your tang drawn out on the face of the handle block. If you will be using an 1/8" twist drill to drill the holes, make a small mark 1/16" in from the top and bottom of the scribed tang slot. This will be the center of the drill dimension. Center punch these markings on the centerline. Add additional punch marks if you will be drilling more holes. Do NOT put additional holes too close together because the drill will wander into an adjacent hole and at the very least frustrate you, it might also break a bit that thin in the hole. Now you're really having fun.

Ok, now that the hole locations are punched you are ready to go to the drill press. I would suggest getting the shortest 1/8" drill bit you have and chucking it up as far into the chuck as it will go. I know it's not good to clamp down on the flutes but have an 1/8" bit set aside for this task. If you use one of those extra long bits it will flex while drilling and your holes will wander all over the map resulting in crooked handles. Especially if you have a wood block with hard and soft grain structures, the bit will want to avoid the hard grain and scoot over to the soft grain (path of least resistance, etc.). You want as stiff a bit as you can get to make the pilot holes. That's why you want as much bit tucked up into the chuck (within reason) as you can, to stiffen the bit. Lightly clamp your handle block in the machinist's vise. Chuck up a longer drill bit or straight piece of rod for this part. Start with one of the holes at either end of the tang slot. Position the vise with the handle block behind the bit so you can see the tang profile you marked on the side of the block. Loosen the block in the vise so it barely holds the piece. Adjust the angle of the block so that the drill or rod is parallel to one of the tang lines. Tighten the vise. Insert your short bit, align with punch mark on top for that side of the tang and drill the pilot hole. Adjust angle for the other edge and drill pilot hole. Drill additional center holes at appropriate angles for their position. Once the pilot holes are drilled, go back and deepen the holes with your longer bits. They should follow the pilot holes without problems. Use a long rod to test the depth of the holes to make sure you are deep enough and that you haven't overshot your depth, and to confirm that your holes are straight.

Next you need to hog out the hole. Start by using a sharp chisel to outline and clean up the face of the hole. Hogging out a hole that narrow will be a pain because you are limited in the kinds of tools you can get to fit in the hole. Make yourself a custom broach for these narrow slots. Sawzall blades and drywall saws can work well. Small chainsaw files might barely fit but I doubt it. In any case, you have to get all that webbing out. Keep digging and test fitting the tang until it fits. Keep checking that the blade is straight to the handle block as you go. It helps to work with a block with generous dimensions so you can compensate for slightly crooked blocks.

Once the tang is seated to the proper depth you will fit up your spacers and guard to the ricasso. Drop the assembly into your handle block and tune the fit to the handle block by adjusting the angle of the block face until all light gaps are closed up. Make every effort to keep mating surfaces FLAT.

When the fit is perfect and without gaps, take the blade/handle assembly and lay the knife on its side with the ricasso propped up on a flat and level block like a 1-2-3 block or piece of micarta etc. with the blade and handle suspended in air. You want to have the ricasso and blade edge level and parallel to your table top/surface plate. Using a pencil on top of a block of wood that puts the pencil lead even with the cutting edge, establish a line around the handle block. This line should be in line with the cutting edge, not necessarily in line with the center of the handle block. Now when you start shaping your handle you will have a centerline from which to work. As you work, shaping the handle, use a contour gauge to compare one side of the handle to the other.

I'd like to give a big thank you to I4Marc! There was a thread a few weeks back about "the good old days" of bladeforums. IMHO this is what makes for "good old days" -guys who know what their doing to take the time to patiently coach those of us who don't. I4Marc, thank you for doing your part to make today the "good old days" for those of us who are new to this!

 

[Justin Schmidt]

valknut,

Ok, take a breath. Let's walk through this. Do you have a pair of digital calipers? If not, run to the hardware store or Harbor Freight and pick up an inexpensive pair. It will make your life worth living. You will also need a calculator to do the simple math if you don't trust doing it on paper. Get a small machinist's vise too if you don't have one.

We should talk about tang design at another time.

Place your block of handle material with what will be the side of the handle facing up. Lay your blade on top, positioned how it will be when the knife is done. Keep in mind any guard or spacer material that will be between the handle and the ricasso and space accordingly. Now trace the tang profile onto the handle block. You can use pencil, masking tape or whatever. Make sure you have enough room around the tang profile to execute the handle dimensions you have designed for the knife. It doesn't hurt to transfer your handle shape to the block as well. But for now we are mainly concerned with the tang. Indicate where the guard or spacers meet the handle block and draw that angle with a straight line. Make sure that the face of the handle block that will meet the guard or spacers is sanded FLAT, not necessarily perpendicular to the top and bottom edges, just that the surface is flat.

Now, turn the block up with the guard side up. Use your calipers (set to decimal inches) to measure the width of the block, divide by two and scribe a centerline. I don't know the dimensions of your block but we'll use 2" square for our examples. Next, set your calipers to the width of your block and subtract .120" and divide by two. Using our 2" square as our example, we get .94". Set your calipers to that number and scribe a parallel line to the centerline from each side, left and right, to establish the width of the tang. Use a small machinist's square or similar to transfer the front of your tang drawing across the face of your handle block. So you have the top and bottom of the tang established as well. You should now have the entire cross section of your tang drawn out on the face of the handle block. If you will be using an 1/8" twist drill to drill the holes, make a small mark 1/16" in from the top and bottom of the scribed tang slot. This will be the center of the drill dimension. Center punch these markings on the centerline. Add additional punch marks if you will be drilling more holes. Do NOT put additional holes too close together because the drill will wander into an adjacent hole and at the very least frustrate you, it might also break a bit that thin in the hole. Now you're really having fun.

Ok, now that the hole locations are punched you are ready to go to the drill press. I would suggest getting the shortest 1/8" drill bit you have and chucking it up as far into the chuck as it will go. I know it's not good to clamp down on the flutes but have an 1/8" bit set aside for this task. If you use one of those extra long bits it will flex while drilling and your holes will wander all over the map resulting in crooked handles. Especially if you have a wood block with hard and soft grain structures, the bit will want to avoid the hard grain and scoot over to the soft grain (path of least resistance, etc.). You want as stiff a bit as you can get to make the pilot holes. That's why you want as much bit tucked up into the chuck (within reason) as you can, to stiffen the bit. Lightly clamp your handle block in the machinist's vise. Chuck up a longer drill bit or straight piece of rod for this part. Start with one of the holes at either end of the tang slot. Position the vise with the handle block behind the bit so you can see the tang profile you marked on the side of the block. Loosen the block in the vise so it barely holds the piece. Adjust the angle of the block so that the drill or rod is parallel to one of the tang lines. Tighten the vise. Insert your short bit, align with punch mark on top for that side of the tang and drill the pilot hole. Adjust angle for the other edge and drill pilot hole. Drill additional center holes at appropriate angles for their position. Once the pilot holes are drilled, go back and deepen the holes with your longer bits. They should follow the pilot holes without problems. Use a long rod to test the depth of the holes to make sure you are deep enough and that you haven't overshot your depth, and to confirm that your holes are straight.

Next you need to hog out the hole. Start by using a sharp chisel to outline and clean up the face of the hole. Hogging out a hole that narrow will be a pain because you are limited in the kinds of tools you can get to fit in the hole. Make yourself a custom broach for these narrow slots. Sawzall blades and drywall saws can work well. Small chainsaw files might barely fit but I doubt it. In any case, you have to get all that webbing out. Keep digging and test fitting the tang until it fits. Keep checking that the blade is straight to the handle block as you go. It helps to work with a block with generous dimensions so you can compensate for slightly crooked blocks.

Once the tang is seated to the proper depth you will fit up your spacers and guard to the ricasso. Drop the assembly into your handle block and tune the fit to the handle block by adjusting the angle of the block face until all light gaps are closed up. Make every effort to keep mating surfaces FLAT.

When the fit is perfect and without gaps, take the blade/handle assembly and lay the knife on its side with the ricasso propped up on a flat and level block like a 1-2-3 block or piece of micarta etc. with the blade and handle suspended in air. You want to have the ricasso and blade edge level and parallel to your table top/surface plate. Using a pencil on top of a block of wood that puts the pencil lead even with the cutting edge, establish a line around the handle block. This line should be in line with the cutting edge, not necessarily in line with the center of the handle block. Now when you start shaping your handle you will have a centerline from which to work. As you work, shaping the handle, use a contour gauge to compare one side of the handle to the other.

Man that is some excellent advice and tips. Only thing that could be made that perfect is adding pictures lol. You should do a WIP with the way you explain things. Thanks I do appreciate it

 

[Justin Schmidt]

I'd like to give a big thank you to I4Marc! There was a thread a few weeks back about "the good old days" of bladeforums. IMHO this is what makes for "good old days" -guys who know what their doing to take the time to patiently coach those of us who don't. I4Marc, thank you for doing your part to make today the "good old days" for those of us who are new to this!

Exactly! I saw that thread and when I started adding photos I was thinking man it would be cool to do a "help me work in progress" type thread. I already fit up and pieces for a mortise handle for this knife. Bit I'm gonna profile out a new blank and go off what i4marc said. I just copied his text and I'm gonna print it off to have a reference.
I'll update this accordingly

 

[Natlek]

Man that is some excellent advice and tips. Only thing that could be made that perfect is adding pictures lol. You should do a WIP with the way you explain things. Thanks I do appreciate it

Yes ! But you don't follow advice you get here Slow down , measured twice before you cut/drill ..................

 

[Justin Schmidt]

Yes ! But you don't follow advice you get here Slow down , measured twice before you cut/drill ..................

I definitely try to man just get excited lol

 

[Natlek]

I can not figure out how did you manage to do this ? Now when you have drill press If you were close, I'd give you one marker pen

 

[Justin Schmidt]

I can not figure out how did you manage to do this ? Now when you have drill press If you were close, I'd give you one marker pen

I was already flustered, confused and pissed off. Didn't draw any lines and I don't have a light by my drill press. Basically a disaster from the start

 

[i4Marc]

Thanks guys. It's a pay it forward thing. I learned a lot here so I'm paying the check. Sorry about the lack of pictures but it was 3:30am. Some steps don't need to be exactly in that order. For instance, you don't need to finish your tang hole before fitting the guard and spacers to the blade. You get the idea. And I skipped some steps like drilling the pin hole because I didn't want the post to get too long.