How does Microtech get away with this?

Terry M. said:
I always disliked this about MT. I’ve been lucky to get M390 blades but if I was to get an Elmax I’d return it. I’m not a fan of Elmax at all.
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I hate to burst your bubble, but you should go check out the various cut tests of industry standard HTed M390/20CV/204p on YT. Outpost 76 is one such channel and he has posted at least a couple videos showing that Microtech's M390/20CV/204p didn't have great edge retention, certainly not anything close to what the steel is capable of. There are videos of this steel from other makers and many have the same issue. Seems particularly bad with the Italian brands.

He also has a link to all his test results and that of others for various steels in Google sheets so you can see how industry standard HTed M390 with relatively poor edge retention is an industry-wide problem. That sheet allows you to compare it against other steel's performance and see how many of these steels shouldn't be doing so much better than M390/20CV/204p, but they are. There are a few makers who do this steel well however, unfortunately, they're in the minority.

There's another really great vid by Tom Hosang Outdoors channel called "Microstructure matters! (testing 10 blades in cts-204p) ft. transparent knives" which explains some of the problems and how various HTs affect this steel and how Rockwell hardness alone doesn't really tell you much about how well the steel will perform.

Similar but opposite to you, and due to this issue, I have an aversion to M390 unless I know the maker has a history of HTing it properly. Funny enough, it's why I am leaning towards Elmax in Microtechs instead of M390 though!

That said, I have no objective evidence that their Elmax will perform any better with regards to edge retention than their M390. I'm just hopeful that it will be better as the issue with M390/20CV/204P seems worse than with other steels. I do have knives of theirs in both of those steels and I intend to do some controlled cut tests to find out though.

As a final note on this, I'm not trying to bash any makers and certainly not the steel. It still works and will serve people well. It's just that a lot of the steel's potential is left on the table as far as edge retention goes unless it's heat treated with this goal in mind.

Terry M. said:
It’s irrational really. I had a ZT Elmax blade years ago and it had a horrible heat treat and ever since that I’ve not been a fan of Elmax or ZTs
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Another of the big problems in the industry is the overheating of the edge when manufacturers put their edges on with high-speed dry grinding. This causes greatly reduced hardness of the edge which negatively impacts performance. It often takes a number of sharpenings to get back to properly hardened steel before you see the edge retention go back up to where you expect it to be.

This is likely the issue you encountered with your ZT. I say this having owned several ZTs myself where I could visibly see the edge was burned since it was all bronze and purple colored!

I encourage at least several sharpenings of a knife using consistent angles and edge finishes before evaluating a blades true performance. It will typically go up as the number of sharpenings increase and you get back to properly hard steel. The tests by Outpost 76 on YT show this really well.

Here's a great post on this topic. Be sure to check out the references linked at the bottom of the post as well :
www.instagram.com

KKnives Switzerland on Instagram: "If you follow me for a while, you may know that I always promote and emphasize wet grinding and wet/hand sharpening. This is yet another stellar example as to why: A fellow knife maker and friend asked me to micro v

366 likes, 109 comments - kknives_switzerland on February 23, 2021: "If you follow me for a while, you may know that I always promote and emphasize wet grinding and w..."
www.instagram.com www.instagram.com
 
The Knife Life said:
I hate to burst your bubble, but you should go check out the various cut tests of industry standard HTed M390/20CV/204p on YT. Outpost 76 is one such channel and he has posted at least a couple videos showing that Microtech's M390/20CV/204p didn't have great edge retention, certainly not anything close to what the steel is capable of. There are videos of this steel from other makers and many have the same issue. Seems particularly bad with the Italian brands.

He also has a link to all his test results and that of others for various steels in Google sheets so you can see how industry standard HTed M390 with relatively poor edge retention is an industry-wide problem. That sheet allows you to compare it against other steel's performance and see how many of these steels shouldn't be doing so much better than M390/20CV/204p, but they are. There are a few makers who do this steel well however, unfortunately, they're in the minority.

There's another really great vid by Tom Hosang Outdoors channel called "Microstructure matters! (testing 10 blades in cts-204p) ft. transparent knives" which explains some of the problems and how various HTs affect this steel and how Rockwell hardness alone doesn't really tell you much about how well the steel will perform.

Similar but opposite to you, and due to this issue, I have an aversion to M390 unless I know the maker has a history of HTing it properly. Funny enough, it's why I am leaning towards Elmax in Microtechs instead of M390 though!

That said, I have no objective evidence that their Elmax will perform any better with regards to edge retention than their M390. I'm just hopeful that it will be better as the issue with M390/20CV/204P seems worse than with other steels. I do have knives of theirs in both of those steels and I intend to do some controlled cut tests to find out though.

As a final note on this, I'm not trying to bash any makers and certainly not the steel. It still works and will serve people well. It's just that a lot of the steel's potential is left on the table as far as edge retention goes unless it's heat treated with this goal in mind.



Another of the big problems in the industry is the overheating of the edge when manufacturers put their edges on with high-speed dry grinding. This causes greatly reduced hardness of the edge which negatively impacts performance. It often takes a number of sharpenings to get back to properly hardened steel before you see the edge retention go back up to where you expect it to be.

This is likely the issue you encountered with your ZT. I say this having owned several ZTs myself where I could visibly see the edge was burned since it was all bronze and purple colored!

I encourage at least several sharpenings of a knife using consistent angles and edge finishes before evaluating a blades true performance. It will typically go up as the number of sharpenings increase and you get back to properly hard steel. The tests by Outpost 76 on YT show this really well.

Here's a great post on this topic. Be sure to check out the references linked at the bottom of the post as well :
www.instagram.com

KKnives Switzerland on Instagram: "If you follow me for a while, you may know that I always promote and emphasize wet grinding and wet/hand sharpening. This is yet another stellar example as to why: A fellow knife maker and friend asked me to micro v

366 likes, 109 comments - kknives_switzerland on February 23, 2021: "If you follow me for a while, you may know that I always promote and emphasize wet grinding and w..."
www.instagram.com www.instagram.com
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I was all ready to read a post that bashed me for not liking Elmax. Not what I found. Your post was well thought out and very informative. Thank you!
 
Thanks for kind words my friend. You're very welcome. Glad you found it informative.

As a long time lurker and reader of this forum for many years and having only recently joined membership, I hope to be a more regular contributor with what I hope is useful information.

Whether my posts are useful or just entertainment, well, I'll leave that to the reader to decide 😂
 
Docscoot said:
None of the Star Wars models I’ve owned
Show the blade steel, maybe just an aesthetic choice, I’ve not lost any sleep over it but it would be nice if at least the box listed the info!
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That could be. I had a StormTrooper but I cannot seem to find any pics of it saved anywhere so I just can't say with certainty that it did have the engraving. It is possible that the cerakote knives don't have it. My Ultratech with the black DLC blade does have the steel engraved so in my head the StormTrooper did too, but I could be wrong.
 
nbp said:
That could be. I had a StormTrooper but I cannot seem to find any pics of it saved anywhere so I just can't say with certainty that it did have the engraving. It is possible that the cerakote knives don't have it. My Ultratech with the black DLC blade does have the steel engraved so in my head the StormTrooper did too, but I could be wrong.
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I assume they’re not using 440A on these but who knows :) my sand trooper, jedis, Sith, and bounty hunter are sterile, no marks. Interestingly my zombie outbreak model does say m390 if I’m remembering correctly.
 
Right, it's always a premium steel. Any steel that they use is more than capable for my needs so I don't worry much about which it is. That said I think I did know in advance from the dealer info what I was getting. But either way, basically any supersteel after S30V is plenty good for me; I just cut regular stuff. Haha
 
M390 is not the only steel I've seen variations in edge retention, CPM-S35VN is another.

Of the knives I own in M390 and it's derivatives, and that I've owned long enough, the two best have been my A Purvis Progeny (m390) and Spyderco Southard(204p).

However, I think a lot of companies are using this steel because it's popular and know it will sell, but don't take the time to finish it properly.
 
I used to be a dealer of MicroTech for my command - about 13 years ago. Their dealer papers had always listed the knife name, model number, serrations, colors, steel, and wholesale price. When I put orders in, I always knew what steel I got.
 
So, I've looked at that Rife/Microtech Delta. I've been wanting to replace my lost MT Socom Delta Tanto (It was the knife that was with me through deployments etc).

Here's the deal. A high-end German made CNC machine is the same here as it is in Germany as it is in China and produces the same 0.0001" precision. What you're probably thinking of is what the market will bear and what you actually see on general market shelves. The quality that the USDM market will consume is generally lower than what the GDM will consume. And the JDM market is probably somewhere in the middle. All of this depends on the product of course, but always keep in mind what we see at Walmart, Target, or even on Amazon (now) is usually the lowest quality the US domestic market will still purchase in sufficient quantity to show the stores they its still desirable.

If a German super steel is put on a high-precision CNC machine, it doesn't matter the country it happens in. If the heat treat is followed to the German manufacturers specs, again, it doesn't matter if its on a farm in the backwoods of Missouri or Guangdong Provence in a mega factory.

For Microtech and Rife, I imagine that MT will protect their reputation and they made darn sure Rife would not sully it. Remember, Microtech is a multi-million dollar business and won't lose income by making such a stupid move as putting pot metal into their design or allowing anyone else (Rife) to.

Now, your personal sensibilities on where it's made are up to you and you can vote with your dollar. But the quality of the collaboration knife is probably the same or a little better than the quality of regular MT knives.
 
I believe it was an interview that Greg Medford did with Anthony Marfione (if I recall correctly at Blade Show), where he talked about shortages and buying large batches of steel; in particular it was M390 that he seemed fond of.

Either way like others have said, all my Microtech's have come in either Elmax, 204P or M390; I haven't really used them in a capacity to speak to their overall toughness or edge holding ability.
 
Whatever steel they use, it is probably suitable for a knife blade.
Do you think they would use a non-hardenable steel like 316 stainless, or some zink based potmetal?
 
afishhunter said:
Whatever steel they use, it is probably suitable for a knife blade.
Do you think they would use a non-hardenable steel like 316 stainless, or some zink based potmetal?
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I never said that, lol. I just think it's lazy of them not to list what specific steel they're using on any particular model.
 
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