How I photograph knives

[PhilL]

Juggler, first of all welcome to BFC.
Second, you don't really want a south facing window, north facing would be preferred since you don't really want any direct sunlight on your subject.
Finally, I don't know what you consider inexpensive. If I were looking for some lighting equipment (which I'm not) I would look for something like this.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000I68LOI/nextag-photo-20/ref=nosim

I like the idea of strobe (flash) over hot lights, and a soft box makes a perfect replacement for a window. I'm sure there are other alternatives available, but something along this line would be fine.

These look intgeresting.
http://www.alienbees.com/b400.html

Ya can't find a window huh?

 

[Juggler2]

Ya can't find a window huh?

Yes, I have a good west facing window, and could use my patio doors for a east facing window. I'll have to try those tommorrow, as it's midnight here. (No north facing windows at all.) I did try a few things earlier tonight, the printer paper worked great for my beginning efforts. Looking forward to tommorrow to try your advice.

(I do have south facing windows, but due to "other" considerations, these aren't practical to use.) My attached garage is on the north side of the house, therefore no natural light. I have a nice large bay window facing west that I'll press into service tommorrow. I'll make several attempts while the sun is directly overhead, and not shining directly in. I'm very anxious to begin, as I've never really made anything remotely resembling a serious effort at close up photo's. Besides, I get browny points every time the better half catches me using her Christmas gift to me!

Here are the last 3 pics I took before finding your thread...

All 3 are on the same piece of cloth...

But I was trying different light in all 3.

So you can see, lots of room for improvement.

 

[nozh2002]

With tripoid you can use desk lamps with regular bulbs.

Read about WightBalance setting in your Canon manuel and set wight balance to indoor. Put you camera on tripoid because you need long exposure and can not hold it by hands for this reason. Then you may set up lights with filling diffusing light from top, light targeted background to awoid sharp shadows and as many as you want accent lights spotting different parts of knife, like bootom (which usually always dark in any pictures I see on this forum... sorry). Use some wight foam board as reflection screen, especially helpfull for polished blades to make this screen being refleted in it. There is no rules how to set up light it is mostly art, but you may read a lot of books about it.

Do not forget to set lenth Appereture to like 16 for good field depth (is it right term?). Use remoute or auto shutter so you will lot shake camera when you pushing and releasing button...

For me it is too slow, you may also have 580EX Canon Flash with ability to be master flash and few slave flashes + there is some small 220EX, especially made for this, to set up light... I found that only when I control light I only can make good pictures indoor, otherwise there is no difference between good and bad cameras without light, so I thing set of flashes is much more important then new lens. After all protography is literally from Roman - painting with light.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[nozh2002]

BTW, first one is pretty good you may use autoLayer in image adgustement. Ony you need something wight to be reflected in blade, this will make it looks much better, in Phill case it is sky, but it may be wight foam board lightened.

Then it will look like this

Both made by Canon XTi

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[fulloflead]

Phil,

Nice tutorial! You're an asset to the forums!

That's, mostly, the way I do it when I want to do it right. (Sometimes, when I'm in a hurry, I just whip out the camera, put the knife on my keyboard and shoot.)

I have just one gripe with your method:

Your white background creates problems. To be wise, you simply MUST choose a background that's medium-grey or a pattern that averages medium grey.

The way cameras work with light is that they'll average all the light it sees. Then, it makes whatever tone turns out to be the middle of that average and makes it the middle tone of the final product...

In other words, if you have a lot of white areas, like your system does, the average the camera makes causes the midtones to be lighter than normal, making your subject (the knife) darker than normal.

If you take a photo on a black background the camera will calculate an average causing the midtones to be darker than normal, causing your subject (the knife) to be lighter than normal.

Don't believe me? Exaggerate the situation by placing a person in front of a light or a window and taking their picture. You'll see that the person is very dark; like a silouette.

People should use a medium background or something with a pattern that averages to a medium - like a flannel shirt or something.


My favorite tip is to use the timer on the camera so that (when you're using available light like you say) you can press the shutter and then step away from the camera so you're not causing it to vibrate when it fires and avoid any blur.

The other tip is to learn to use the "Macro" mode but don't put the camera too close. Keep it a couple feet away and zoom using the macro mode.

.

 

[severedthumbs]

Don't believe me? Exaggerate the situation by placing a person in front of a light or a window and taking their picture. You'll see that the person is very dark; like a silouette.

i thought this was just because the source of light is behind the person, so of course they will be blacked out. no?

just buy a whibal card and shoot on whatever background you like. http://www.rawworkflow.com/products/whibal/purchase.html

 

[fulloflead]

i thought this was just because the source of light is behind the person, so of course they will be blacked out. no?

Yes, but it happens at a lesser extent (but for the same reasons) when photographing against a white background.

And the exact opposite when photographed against a black background.

Photographers used to carry, in their equipment, a 40% (if I remember my photography classes right) grey card to use to focus their lightmeter on; they'd have their subject hold it while they set up their light readings and then take it away to take the photo.

.

 

[PhilL]

Photographers used to carry, in their equipment, a 40% (if I remember my photography classes right) grey card to use to focus their lightmeter on; they'd have their subject hold it while they set up their light readings and then take it away to take the photo.

.

It's actually an 18% Grey card, it's about the tone value of the average persons palm of the their hand.

I mostly use a white background, but there's nothing wrong with a medium tone. The reason I suggest white background in this tutorial is that everyone has access to copy white copy paper. The more consistent we can be with this setup the easier it is to evaluate and offer suggestions. I'm not a big fan of black for a background because it's very easy to lose the shape of a knife between the shadows and the background.

Here's a very simple shot I did on just a piece of cardboard. It's got medium tone and a very subtle pattern to it.

Juggler you need to get your light source, back behind and reflected into the blade. The light source in my tutorial is a window without direct sunlight. the light source could just as well have been a soft box or even a light bounced into a white wall. If it doesn't look good in the camera it's probably not going to look too good in the photo

 

[nozh2002]

I respectfully disagree. Light source should lighten object not back of the object, as you may notice on that very example, where front of the knofe is darken. If light will be ferlected in blade into camers then effect will be like making picture of lughtbulb. Everithing but blade will be exteremely dark, because light reflected in blade will be too bright. Instead you should put whight paper of foam boared or something wight to have it reflected. With different positioning you may manage to expose details of the grind.

For example on this Russian beauty Rosarms Fox II, I hightlight grinds with two screens and keep flat side dark:

And here I highlighted flat side, but make gring bit darker

ALso In my previouse pics you may see how hollow grinds exposed with gradiental change in lighteness. It will not be possible with light bounced of blade surface.

I think that in your case it is not light back behind knife but white sky instead...

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[PhilL]

I respectfully disagree.

Disagree all you want, but there's a reason why nobody lights their knives in the way you suggest, not Weyer, Coop, Point 7, and I certainly wouldn't suggest anyone follow you're suggestions here.

 

[nozh2002]

Disagree all you want, but there's a reason why nobody lights their knives in the way you suggest, not Weyer, Coop, Point 7, and I certainly wouldn't suggest anyone follow you're suggestions here.

What is this reason?

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[PhilL]

nozh2002, I'm not going to explain it to you.
Please consider our conversation to be over.

 

[nozh2002]

nozh2002, I'm not going to explain it to you.
Please consider our conversation to be over.

OK.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[SharpByCoop]

Phil's original intention on this thread was to make it SUPER-SIMPLE to take clear photos of knives on the cheap. Using daylight and a white paper background is about as basic as you can get. And, it works.

All my own shots have the light source predominately from the upper rear--just like this setup. Add a small diffuser to bounce some light back into the darker area of the shot and it's almost like you were a pro.

We can all overengineer the process with better ideas. Please allow Phil to guide the viewers to the least problematic and the simplest method. I can't wait to see what Juggler 2 comes up with after this short lesson in efficiency. :thumbup:

Coop

 

[nozh2002]

Well, even with this approach if only light you have is window, it is pretty easy to put camera betweeen window and object to have it lighten from right direction. I think the problem here is because reflection of wight sky and light sourece is mixed up toghether, but this is different things.

This is basic staff, non mirror surface should be lighten, mirrorish surface need to reflect something but not lighten - lightening it does not make any effect - put as many light as you want to mirror you still will se only what is reflected, because all thet light will just reflect. In case of blade if you do not have wight screen reflected in it (or wight sky) it will look dark because light did not affect mirrorish surface. This is why wight sky works, but do not mixed it up with light source which is different thing. To make blade wight you need to have siómething wight being reflected in it. Wight sky or wight fabric does work, but same way wight screen will work, and you may put lights to accent other part of the pictures, instead of putting it all behind fabric to have diffusive light. I say that wight screen is prefferable because it may be lighten unevenly and so you may be able to expose geometry og the grind + hollow or convex or flat. Also it allows to show unevennes lon the surface like signatures here:

Sorry, that I am stepping in your expertize zone here being just amauter photographer for little time, but you are all continue to put light source in the back and put filter between it and blade just to have right reflection there, while you may have knife being lighten properly from the front and have some screen in the back lighten with same light source to make front of the knife ligten right and blade have have correct reflection! And does not matter is it sun light or flashes or $10 light bulbs from Ikea.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[PhilL]

nozh2002, I thought I told you nicely that this conversation was over. Why are you still posting on this thread? Did you not understand who I was referring to with "Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot". Just to clear it up it was you. You're on my Ignore List, so I'm no longer listening if anything you post is directed at me.

Please start your own thread and share your depth of photographic expertise with everyone who cares to learn it. You're just wasting space on this thread.

Here, maybe this will keep you busy for a while.
Photograph a setup like this with your lighting setup.

There are no changes that need to be made to my setup.

 

[nozh2002]

nozh2002, I thought I told you nicely that this conversation was over. Why are you still posting on this thread? Did you not understand who I was referring to with "Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot". Just to clear it up it was you. You're on my Ignore List, so I'm no longer listening if anything you post is directed at me.

Please start your own thread and share your depth of photographic expertise with everyone who cares to learn it. You're just wasting space on this thread.

Here, maybe this will keep you busy for a while.
Photograph a setup like this with your lighting setup.

There are no changes that need to be made to my setup.

Wow... Well, OK. Sorry, I will not post it PhilL's thread any more.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Ebbtide]

My next question was going to be a request for tips on lighting multiple blades.
I have a group shot to do

 

[PhilL]

Wally, I'm not going to kid you, photographing multiple knives in one shot takes a lot more time and care. You may have to tilt the knives independently to get just the right lighting on each knife. I use a set of small round magnets that I'll put under the blades to prop up or angle them. A kneaded eraser or clay can also be used under the knives. You're probably are going to need bigger reflectors than just folded typing paper. A couple of small mirrors can direct the light just where you need it.

This is where having a tripod is vital. You compose your knives on the background, tilt your table top to get the best overall light on the group of knives. Then set up your camera, and frame the shot on the screen. Now you can do your final corrections and adjustments. Take more shots than normal, make small corrections to improve the reflections and composition. The time you spend now making corrections will be time saved later when you do your image editing.

For you guys that are just starting to photograph your knives with this setup, start with one knife at a time.

 

[Ebbtide]

Well, I didn't wait for PhilL's reply and shot these.
Still using the PWLM (PhilL's Window Lighting Method), a tripod and my Olympus 3020 Point & Shoot, with 20"x30" white board reflector.

The more knives you put in there the tougher it is

Guys, if I can do this....
you can too.