How to identify a factory seconds

coiledwire

coiledwire

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I hoping someone can provide pictures and a description on how to ID a factory 2nds. With gaining popularity and Monday sales, I'm thinking this will be a good reference to have.

I apologize if this thread/topic has been started elsewhere. Tell me where and I'll link it here.

Thanks!
 
Guy stamps a tiny divot behind the handle scales to denote that unit being a factory 2nd. I never took a photo of any I have had which I eventually passed onto you, but I did look behind a couple of them to note for myself. One of them was that 5.1 in 20CV.
 
I do not have photos to help but from what i have heard, most people cannot even find why their 2nd is a 2nd. And for those that can, it took a fair bit of time to even find why it was a 2nd

Guy is that concerned with how perfect his products are, that the slightest imperfection that the ordinary person couldnt find, will be placed as a second.

Someone else may have a better explaination but that is the general concensus that I have gathered.
 
Ok. I'll look for divot next time I have the handles off. If I see it, I'll post a pic unless someone bests me to it.

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XtianAus said:
I do not have photos to help but from what i have heard, most people cannot even find why their 2nd is a 2nd.
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This is why I thought it might be a good idea to have this info readily available. Would hate to hear someone getting duped with a 2nds posing as a 1sts.
 
coiledwire said:
This is why I thought it might be a good idea to have this info readily available. Would hate to hear someone getting duped with a 2nds posing as a 1sts.
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Exactly :thumbup:

I remember someone (JF?) posting awhile back that it would be nice to have an identifying mark for seconds that is readily visible, rather than under the handle scales. It would certainly make identification much easier. I think the divot under the scales is a small drill mark rather than a punch mark, though, but am not 100% on that. I remember seeing some pics of the marks, however the exact thread is eluding me.

If the ghost logo was done to the seconds, that would stand out readily. Just thinking out loud.
 
The difference between factory firsts and 2cds is very slight on the new gen knives. Out of the five I have purchased, 2 had a small pit, 1 a minor grind issue and 2 I could not find any flaws at all. The mark under the handle is the only way to tell they are a 2cd.
2cds for the first gen are a different story as the flaws are more pronounced, a lot of light logos, some mismatched grinds and cut out marks being pretty common.
I have not seen one yet but there can also be a mark under the handle that was for the Rockwell test, not to be confused with the 2cds mark
Last but not least a little hole drilled under the handle also shows that the steel is stainless like on an elmax edc4.
 
The little punch mark between the last screw hole and the lanyard hole is the factory 2cd marking.
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Thank you psybull for posting an example of a 2nds mark on a new spec model.

I agree with the suggestion to make the 2nds mark observable without taking the scales off. Maybe something like a small ferro notch at the end of the tang.

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I find it very difficult to believe that Guy will accept to put an intentional identification mark (whether machine punched, drilled or otherwise) on any visible part of his blades. HK's suggestion with the ghosted logo may be the best one yet for Mr. OCD to consider ;)
 
Casinostocks said:
I find it very difficult to believe that Guy will accept to put an intentional identification mark (whether machine punched, drilled or otherwise) on any visible part of his blades. HK's suggestion with the ghosted logo may be the best one yet for Mr. OCD to consider ;)
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It was my suggestion a while back that a 2nds mark be placed somewhere easily visible, and while Guy may never do it, I doubt there there is no reason the knife is a second, thus nothing about the visible mark will render it imperfect when that is already the case. Perhaps he just doesn't want to make it worse.

I thought this was a big deal at first because of the amount of people selling most likely 2nds as firsts. But it doesn't seem to be as big of an issue to other people as I thought.

While some people cannot find anything wrong with their 2nd, they are probably not trained in what they are looking at. I have zero belief that Guy would mark something a second that is in fact a first.

For comparison sake, I have had 2 out of over 30 Sebenzas that had no visible flaw and CRK has been winning manufacturing awards, something to the tune of 14 of the last 16 years.
 
I am one of those 'some people' that could not find flaws on two of the 2cds I have purchased.
Considering I have a backround working at as quality control tech in a custom metal fab shop I know my way around a few measuring devices.
If a few of the new gen 2cds have made it through 2-3 rounds of inspection at the manufacturer before being caught, the flaws must be pretty hard to spot and they are experts. Trust me I break out the magnifying glass and calipers on every new one that comes my way just for my own curiosity.
I agree selling a 2cd to someone without them knowing is a bad practice, and buyers should always ask if it is a 1st or 2cd prior to purchasing.
The other point I have been trying to say is that as Guy's skill level has risen and more of the finish processes are done in house than on the 1st gen he is able to have tighter quality control standards so even his 2cds are really close to perfect.
 
Psybull,

You may have looked right at the flaw and thought, "No way that is what makes it a second." It's not like we have a comprehensive list of what is and is not a second.

My point was that, just because someone says, I can't find something wrong with my second does not mean it's a first, and does not mean a second is the same as a first. I've bought more than a few "perfect" knives that within 10 seconds of handling it have found imperfections, perhaps up to manufacturer specs, but not to mine at said price.

Anyways, I'm not trying to be inflammatory. I have no idea what you did or didn't check. In my mind, a 60/40 edge is lame on a $500 knife. Other people accept the blade being off center completely never mind the edge.

My point is, a second is a second for a particular reason. I believe somewhere it was said in the new gen knives, something like a bad edge goes in the scrap bin, and seconds are 100% functional, thus the issue must be cosmetic.

Edit: I may be the only one with a handful of needle or escapement files for fasteners, but I doubt it.
 
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I'll state this again; the knowledge of what the tell tale 2nds mark is should be out there for anyone to easily reference.

As S!K puts more blades out there, and people line up for the Monday sales, i hope to never see a negative thread about a 2nds unknowingly brought under the guise of a 1st. I'm sure we can all imagine that somehow the blame will be put back into Guy and Co for not making the 2nds mark obvious, and that his 2nds are too high of quality as a negative trait.


It appears the new spec has a drill mark somewhere under the handles. There's a picture of one earlier in the thread.

On a old spec 2nds, what is the tell mark? Does anyone have a pic of it?

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coiledwire said:
I'll state this again; the knowledge of what the tell tale 2nds mark is should be out there for anyone to easily reference.

As S!K puts more blades out there, and people line up for the Monday sales, i hope to never see a negative thread about a 2nds unknowingly brought under the guise of a 1st. I'm sure we can all imagine that somehow the blame will be put back into Guy and Co for not making the 2nds mark obvious, and that his 2nds are too high of quality as a negative trait.


It appears the new spec has a drill mark somewhere under the handles. There's a picture of one earlier in the thread.

On a old spec 2nds, what is the tell mark? Does anyone have a pic of it?

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In reply to the bold question: the mark is the same on old specs.

As to your concerns in general: I don't think it's been a real issue in the past, at least that I heard about. But maybe that could change going forward.
 
I don't think that will be that big of an issue in here because if a seller tries to pass on a 2nd as a 1st, he will not last that long on here. Have you seen how brutal a negative and reputation mudding thread in the GB&U subform can become? ;)

I imagine if it is an eBay sale, the after shocks will not be felt in here much. But when it comes to FB or private outside sales, I really can not comment. I am not on Facebook and CoiledW is the only one I have ever transacted privately with.
 
Silver Needle said:
In reply to the bold question: the mark is the same on old specs.

As to your concerns in general: I don't think it's been a real issue in the past, at least that I heard about. But maybe that could change going forward.
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Ok. I didn't the that mark on a 2nds old spec of mine. I'll check again.

Maybe I'm being paranoid, but the fact that the current 2nds rival other maker's 1st means it more than possible to pass a 2nd as a 1st. Again, maybe I'm just being paranoid for being relatively new to this maker and not aware of these details.

But CS is right. Someone trying that kind of tom-foolery here would likely be ran out of town.

I'll check my 2nds and posts pics in the OP when I get a chance. Thanks for all that posted.

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Out of the GSOs you got from me, three were 2nds as you know. I still remember them all and I'm almost at Justin caliber of being anal, so this is what I still recollecl:

The 5.1 20CV I could not find anything but maybe, maybe some unevenness in the peened finish. However when i removed the handle scales, there was an extra drilled hole in addition to the punched divot. I had guessed that was because someone at the factory messed up the position of the drill hole for the handle scales!

The 5.1 3V had a very tiny asymmetry at the tip, the apex. I had to find that with my diamond dealer's eye magnifier!

The 4.7 3V again slight unevenness in the peened finish in a small area but did not see any nicks or indentations like the photo posted earlier. The other one from Welke was a 1st.

As for my own GSO 5.0, that was a 1st I bought here on the Ex. The GSO 10 coming I will have to inspect but I know that it is a new, never used 2nd. The logo on the "port" side is a bit off from what I could see on the photos!
 
coiledwire said:
Ok. I didn't the that mark on a 2nds old spec of mine. I'll check again.

Maybe I'm being paranoid, but the fact that the current 2nds rival other maker's 1st means it more than possible to pass a 2nd as a 1st. Again, maybe I'm just being paranoid for being relatively new to this maker and not aware of these details.

But CS is right. Someone trying that kind of tom-foolery here would likely be ran out of town.

I'll check my 2nds and posts pics in the OP when I get a chance. Thanks for all that posted.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
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I'm definitely not trying to say your concern isn't valid, I like how you think.

I'd hope that if the people selling and buying know enough to care, they'd be able to figure it out.

Justin and CS would know better than I, but with demand being how it is, would the difference between factory first and second change the price of a sale that much?
 
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