How tough CPM-3V really is?

[Alberta Ed]

“High carbide content” is relative though. MagnaCut has half the carbide of th prior common PM stainless steels. Even less than half of carbide monsters like M390. The microstructure of that steel is not pretty.

Magnacut is certainly great stuff. I have been highly impressed by my Bradford Guardian 3 in Magnacut.

 

[LostCause]

They are available to the public. The info that I get from, a Finnish collector website: http://www.nirvi.fi/nnbm/page93.html.
That and the fact that they are both made by Lauri metal and having the very similar dimensions (the official one is a little longer, but not by much) kind of suggest that they are the same knife in practice.
Since the knife is only available from retailers, and most of them are from Europe, I can't recommend you where to get it.

Back to the main subject, many production 3V knives are so damn thick. Cold Steel Master hunter is 4.8mm (0.1875") for 115mm (4.5") and the SRK 3V is 5mm (1.95) for 152mm (6") blade, Lion Steel new T6 3V is 5.5mm thick(!!!) for 155mm (6.03") blade... That's insane for a tough steel.

So thick, yet it still breaks with less abuse than 1095.

 

[PNWhovian]

I am quite happy with the 3V knives I have and never really worry about breaking them.
I have a Fehrman Peacemaker(3/16” F3V) that I’ve carried for a good 20 years and a couple of deployments. This thing has never failed or disappointed me and I’ve definitely asked more of it than I should have. In fact, it still finds its way into my rotation on a regular basis.
I have a Strider DBL in 3V and abuse the hell out of that thing on a fairly regular basis. It’s actually one of my most carried as I use it for just about any and every task that might come up.
I also recently picked up a Bradford Guardian 5 in 3V and plan to try it out once we close on our house and settle in.
I hope to pick up a Carothers at some point.

 

[Natlek]

A true, flat 15° per side without convex will be significantly more delicate than a flat 25° per side.


Yet, in a lot of testing and anecdotal accounts we see on the forums and other social media no one is talking about what edge angle they are using.

And about thickness behind edge .And about thickness above of behind edge

 

[John_B]

I love 3V. I never had issues with it. Stood up well even after hitting a bone. My personal experience with it is top notch. No complains from me.

And then I heard a guy complain about 3V Benchmade Leuku chipping upon probably hitting a pebble while he was chopping something in forest and he hit the dirt with a knife.

I head to Facebook - bit of digging and there's video of dude throwing Cold Steel Master Hunter into wooden chair, prying sideways to pull it out and - the tip snapping. That is very idiotic thing to do, but 3V is super hyped, and well...

Second video is guy using a hammer (metal hammer) to baton Cold Steel 3V SRK (also idiotic thing to do) and it broke within few hits.

I watched JoeX videos with several 3V knives from Cold Steel, Bark River, Bradford Guardian - and none of them were super impressive. In matter of fact, every single one of them has left me disappointed. Multiple knives in 1095, AUS8 and other "cheap steels" outperformed the 3V in way that not only they took more abuse, but they even had better edge stability upon impacting metal and brick.

Overall grind thicknesses, geometry and hardness are varying from these knives, but we keep coming back to the fact that knives in 3V might not be so ultra tough we imagined them to be. Which brings question of all these charts posting 3V up to the very top of tough steels when real world abuse tests show different data?

I know everything will fail given enough abuse, just 3V seems to be regularly failing from way less abuse than 1095.

3V is a way better steel in a way that it'll rust less and keep it's edge for longer than 1095 for example, but is it really that "super" as internet makes it to be? Every time when someone asks for reccomendation for tough knife - 3V is brought up. But real world abuse tests show different story.

What are your takes on it?

Its the Chuck Norris of Steel!

 

[greater]

I have found that 3V is one good cutter in food prep as well as able to cut through cloth very easily. 3V should be very tough in comparison to other steels since it is formulated (optimized) for toughness. I would not be surprised if there are people who can bring this stuff to even better specs with their proprietary heat treat but a standard heat treat done according to proper specs should produce good results. If it doesn't then most likely corner cutting inexpensive/inappropriate/sloppy heat treat protocols are to blame.

I do not believe that if it's not treated by one particular outfit, even if they may be the best ???? and do excellent work, it means that it's crap when treated according to manufacturers standard recommended specs instead.

If super persistent way above average edge retention is much more important to someone than just plain very good edge retention with above average toughness than 3V is not the best choice. Steels over time have gone (CPM type steels) from being excellent in one category (toughness with low edge retention vs brittleness with high edge retention, stainless vs non stainless trade offs etc....) and mediocre to poor in another to modern day steels that are excellent in one area and adequate to very good in the other areas.

Despite the advancements there is still no steel that does it all. There will be trade offs. 3V is designed to optimize toughness and if it is heat treated to bring out other properties over that you will probably wind up with a steel that might be very good in that property but not nearly as good as other steels designed to exploit that property and don't be surprised if you lose (sacrifice) that excellent toughness. Don't say it's a bad steel in that circumstance because it's user error not the material.

The problem with finding out blade toughness for the average person is a simple crude test often requires doing things to the blade that most people would be uncomfortable doing. A blade with a bad heat treat on the brittle side can be a super edge retaining cutter until something is done that causes it to break, chip or whatever. If the knife is generally used gently the weakness may never be found out.

This can be bad for people like me who treat their knives gently but want to rest knowing if it needed to be used hard it would be up to the task. I really don't know do I. I have to trust the reputation of the companies that market and sell it.

Now you can figure out why I love all those knife destruction test videos on youtube where people do things that I would never want to do to my knife. They have their role in debunking deceptive marketing and companies that are cheating on their heat treat protocols and quality control.

 

[JoeBusic]

3V is very tough. If there is a problem it's other stuff. 1095 is crap. Even Larrin couldn't make it tough. 420HC beats 1095 everywhere and it's stainless. Why do people still consider anything above 1055 of simple steels for toughness? Don't they have internet!?

 

[greater]

I think that is harsh. 1095 has withstood the test of time. Just because it's not a good as other steels does not make it useless ("crap".) I read stuff like 1095 is easier to work with and very forgiving in heat treat. It's also low cost. In my book it adds up to a plain Jane practical steel that takes a very good edge and cuts just fine. My limited understanding is it's an older simple steel that will sacrifice toughness or edge retention for the other depending on which you want to optimize it for.

I don't mind it. Wouldn't it be easier for you to work with as well as reducing wear and tear on equipment ? You are a knife maker I am not so I realize you know a thing or two about this. Is it possible your standards are very high and you see how these modern steels can dwarf the simple steels in performance.

 

[greater]

I sure would not mind having someone make a bushing equipped blade for my blem Krake Raken (balisong) handles and pivots in 3V or even a good 420HC that takes a keen edge.

 

[LostCause]

3V is very tough. If there is a problem it's other stuff. 1095 is crap. Even Larrin couldn't make it tough. 420HC beats 1095 everywhere and it's stainless. Why do people still consider anything above 1055 of simple steels for toughness? Don't they have internet!?

They do have internet. I'm yet to see 420HC offer this kind of performance.
Many steels are tougher on paper, and yet real world usage ends up being different story. There's a reason why 1095 stood up to the test of time.

And here is delta 3V vs Bark River 3V.

And here is 3V by Boker.

I'm not an expert, but that 1095 is some tough stuff, I'd not feel underknifed with it, and I'd pick that over 420HC any day.

 

[greater]

Oh no a 1095 pissing contest.

I like 3V the one I have (ad20.5) cuts well, and has not shown any signs of rust so far for about a year. I am quite fond of it.

3V according to a knife maker I saw on youtube is hard on the tools, requires a long rigid heat treat process that also is hard on his heat treating ovens.
In addition it took a lot work and time on his part. He tested various specimens and was quite happy with the results but said he would likely not be making anymore more 3V knives because of the hassles involved.

A modern CPM steel like 3V has advantages if one doesn't mind putting in all the work which the customer will have to pay for.

 

[Deino]

They do have internet. I'm yet to see 420HC offer this kind of performance.
Many steels are tougher on paper, and yet real world usage ends up being different story. There's a reason why 1095 stood up to the test of time.

And here is delta 3V vs Bark River 3V.

And here is 3V by Boker.

I'm not an expert, but that 1095 is some tough stuff, I'd not feel underknifed with it, and I'd pick that over 420HC any day.

They tested more 1095 knives, and many of them have thick stock. They also tested the the Gerber Strongarm, which is 420HC, and it passed easily!

This is The MOST Requested Knife..ever | Gerber Strongarm

We get a lot of requests for reviews and sadly we can't do them all... however! this one got requested so much over the years that we finally... after all th...

www.youtube.com

I don't even like that channel, but for the sake of consistency, there you have your 420HC tougher than 1095. It is even a full length stick tang and not full width and length tang.

It is the only 420HC they tried for some reason. Their method shows that the steel can do well, though think of getting other 420HC like Buck knife, because Buck is bad? because they can't get Buck in the Netherlands? I don't think so since they do get so many American made and other EU youtubers and EU shop do get Buck knives. Heck even Condor has 420HC blades.

 

[LostCause]

They tested more 1095 knives, and many of them have thick stock. They also tested the the Gerber Strongarm, which is 420HC, and it passed easily!

This is The MOST Requested Knife..ever | Gerber Strongarm

We get a lot of requests for reviews and sadly we can't do them all... however! this one got requested so much over the years that we finally... after all th...

www.youtube.com

I don't even like that channel, but for the sake of consistency, there you have your 420HC tougher than 1095. It is even a full length stick tang and not full width and length tang.

It is the only 420HC they tried for some reason. Their method shows that the steel can do well, though think of getting other 420HC like Buck knife, because Buck is bad? because they can't get Buck in the Netherlands? I don't think so since they do get so many American made and other EU youtubers and EU shop do get Buck knives. Heck even Condor has 420HC blades.

Did you even watch entire video?
420HC had significant edge problems after being batonned into hard drive.
1095 was batonned through frying pan without edge damage.

 

[shane45-1911]

1095 is crap.

Don't start with your bullshit again.

Do you REALLY think Tops, Esee, Becker, etc. would be using 1095 if 1055 was better???? I'm pretty sure they can afford to use whatever simple carbon steel they want, and have the capability to process whatever they choose to its best potential.

 

[shane45-1911]

I'm not an expert, but that 1095 is some tough stuff, I'd not feel underknifed with it, and I'd pick that over 420HC any day.

Ignore him. He's just an asshat know-it-all, and rarely (if ever) contributes any of his vast self-proclaimed knowledge about knives, except to criticize 1095 at any opportunity that presents itself.

Just because he has "knifemaker" status means jack-shit. My mother knew more about knives. And she was an accountant.

 

[coolbreezy37]

Did you even watch entire video?
420HC had significant edge problems after being batonned into hard drive.
1095 was batonned through frying pan without edge damage.

Tops has 1095 down pat, IMO no production 1095 knife is better.

 

[VorpelSword]

I am not sure what these graphs show. What is the difference between the terms, "toughness" and edge retention?

What I'd really like to see is a comparison of the newer corrosion resistant steels from S30V through S45VN and on yhe other alpha-numerics to Maqgnicut. . .. with the 440 family as a baseline reference.

 

[Natlek]

They do have internet. I'm yet to see 420HC offer this kind of performance.
Many steels are tougher on paper, and yet real world usage ends up being different story. There's a reason why 1095 stood up to the test of time.

And here is delta 3V vs Bark River 3V.

And here is 3V by Boker.

I'm not an expert, but that 1095 is some tough stuff, I'd not feel underknifed with it, and I'd pick that over 420HC any day.

When people watch clip like this most time they focuses on the wrong things. Look carefully at the geometry of the blade, bevels and edge bevels. And if you know thickness of blade on spine you can get very useful information for that knife.
It is all about geometry .Same steel , same heat treat , same hardness and you can make many different knives. One will cut nail as they are from sponge without any damage , other one will chip if just looks in that nail . Many abuse that geometry to show that their magic heat treat formula for a certain steel works miracles . And only children believe in miracles and Santa Claus!
One more thing , it is not just edge bevel angle that define blade ,thickness behind edge is also very important .EDGE on blade with 0.4mm BTE will be four time stronger then EDGE on blade with 0.2mm BTE .Both same edge angle ! Even that is not end. You can make two knives , both 0.4mm BTE and same edge angle and one can be much much stronger on edge . HOW thick is just above that BTE thickness ? It is game that some knife makers play to .................you know right ?

Which geometry will better preform on nail ? Same steel , same hardness ,same edge angle same BTE thickness ?
Blue one or red one ?

 

[greater]

Back on topic. From what I read S30V and S45VN are steels optimized for edge retention. They are good and usually tough enough however they hold an edge longer and better than they withstand stress before breaking. 3V is optimized for toughness it should be more resistant to shock and stress before breaking than other steels not designed for that. 3V holds a great edge too but it is not going to hold an edge as good, in general (there are no absolutes in anything) as other steels optimized for edge retention.

The older steels like the 440 family is the same but trade offs are greater like for examples much less edge retention if treated for toughness or a knife more prone to snapping it treated to bring out edge retention. The fact that they are stainless when it come to the older steels also added compromises to quality.

The new powdered metal steels also have trade off, they are greatly reduced ,but not totally eliminated either. In general they outperform older stainless steels by a wide margin. They also outperform a lot of older carbon steels or compete with them in areas like toughness, edge retention, and in a lot of cases blows simple carbon steels out of the water in the area of corrosion resistance (stainless.) This very general since there are all sorts of different steels out there made for different purposes.

I like the idea behind 3V. Toughness with a little above decent edge retention and although not stainless it still resists corrosion enough for most general purposes.

 

[Synov]

I am not sure what these graphs show. What is the difference between the terms, "toughness" and edge retention?

What I'd really like to see is a comparison of the newer corrosion resistant steels from S30V through S45VN and on yhe other alpha-numerics to Maqgnicut. . .. with the 440 family as a baseline reference.

Toughness is how much force a knife can take without breaking. Edge retention is how long the edge lasts after numerous cuts. These two factors are typically at odds because the metal needs to deform to absorb energy without breaking, but the easier it deforms the faster it loses its edge.