I just don’t understand!

Lesknife said:
Now a days a lot of people are more interested in looks, shapes, name brand or gimmicks rather than performance or function. Never mind knives were made for cutting or slicing. It’s become an accessory fashion statement for some kinda like their clothes or jewelry and makers are willing to satisfy their wants.
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We can't blame makers , they are the majority
 
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knarfeng said:
4Cr14 is equivalent to 420HC.

3Cr14 is equivalent to 420J2.

So Kershaw has some knives in 420HC. Lotta outfits do.
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So as a huge Buck fan, would 4Cr14 be equal to Buck's 420hc, with of course the Bose ht? My thought may be wrong, but I'd take the 420hc any day.
 
Yo Mama said:
So as a huge Buck fan, would 4Cr14 be equal to Buck's 420hc, with of course the Bose ht? My thought may be wrong, but I'd take the 420hc any day.
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420HC is not an AISI designation. There is no formal composition for it. The composition varies by manufacturer even if made here in the US.

Heat treat also varies with the temps and dwell times. So, that also is always going to be a question mark unless you have history of that particular manufacturer.

So at the end of the day, Buck has a good history heat treating whatever exact alloy they use for "420HC".
Kershaw's is no more unknown than anyone else's.
 
My Kershaw Link's 420HC blew any 8CR13MoV steel I've ever used away. I could get that knife stupid sharp.

Maybe I've just had bad luck with 8CR13MoV knives.
 
knarfeng said:
420HC is not an AISI designation. There is no formal composition for it. The composition varies by manufacturer even if made here in the US.

Heat treat also varies with the temps and dwell times. So, that also is always going to be a question mark unless you have history of that particular manufacturer.

So at the end of the day, Buck has a good history heat treating whatever exact alloy they use for "420HC".
Kershaw's is no more unknown than anyone else's.
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Thank you for this!
 
knarfeng said:
420HC is not an AISI designation. There is no formal composition for it. The composition varies by manufacturer even if made here in the US.

Heat treat also varies with the temps and dwell times. So, that also is always going to be a question mark unless you have history of that particular manufacturer.

So at the end of the day, Buck has a good history heat treating whatever exact alloy they use for "420HC".
Kershaw's is no more unknown than anyone else's.
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Thank you for this!
 
If Cold Steel wanted to use this cheap stainless in a budget line , distinguished by labeling as "Lite" or similar , that would limit the damage .

Using for iconic , flagship models might yield short term profit . But long term could be very damaging to the brand , IMO . :(:thumbsdown::thumbsdown:
 
knarfeng said:
4Cr14 is equivalent to 420HC.

3Cr14 is equivalent to 420J2.

So Kershaw has some knives in 420HC. Lotta outfits do.
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So if 4Cr14 is equivalent to 420HC then 8Cr13 should theoretically be superior in edge holding to 420HC if heat treated properly? But, I’ve never owned a knife in 8Cr13 that would hold an edge anywhere near as good as my Buck knives in 420HC in my everyday uses. So does that mean that no manufacturer that uses 8Cr has the heat treat dialed in perfectly or does that mean that Buck’s heat treat is far superior to most others and steel composition isn’t as important as heat treatment? (Assuming blade / edge geometry is identical)
 
DocJD said:
If Cold Steel wanted to use this cheap stainless in a budget line , distinguished by labeling as "Lite" or similar , that would limit the damage .

Using for iconic , flagship models might yield short term profit . But long term could be very damaging to the brand , IMO . :(:thumbsdown::thumbsdown:
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I haven't read all the thread but I do see that lots of folks were for using a carbon steel like SK5, which is exactly what they should have done. It's baffling why they went cheap stainless, especially on, like you say, flagship models.

Meanwhile Kershaw sells some 4 or 3cr stocking stuffers to people who don't care to know any better and out come the pitch forks!
 
vwb563 said:
So if 4Cr14 is equivalent to 420HC then 8Cr13 should theoretically be superior in edge holding to 420HC if heat treated properly? But, I’ve never owned a knife in 8Cr13 that would hold an edge anywhere near as good as my Buck knives in 420HC in my everyday uses. So does that mean that no manufacturer that uses 8Cr has the heat treat dialed in perfectly or does that mean that Buck’s heat treat is far superior to most others and steel composition isn’t as important as heat treatment? (Assuming blade / edge geometry is identical)
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Other factors play a big roll in your experience. We can't just say "Assuming blade / edge geometry is identical" when thinking about why you are seeing a difference in your everyday experiences. If you want a test in a vacuum, take a look at what Larrin does (I believe the link is at the top of the subforum). If you want to explain what you see in your every day experiences, we need to look at the edge geometry as much as the steel or heat treat, if not more. These are different discussions, really. If I'm not mistake, buck does a lot of thin hollow grinds. That makes a difference.
 
craytab said:
Meanwhile Kershaw sells some 4 or 3cr stocking stuffers to people who don't care to know any better and out come the pitch forks!
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I personally could care less what Cold Steel does. (Not much of a fan) But I hate it when a company that I do really enjoy like Kershaw comes out with a model that I’m attracted to and then find out it’s in a lower end steel. Although I did find out through this thread it’s not as low grade as I first thought. I’m not a big fan of 420 or equivalent unless it’s Bucks 420 which performs at a much higher level than most brands in 420.
 
vwb563 said:
I personally could care less what Cold Steel does. (Not much of a fan) But I hate it when a company that I do really enjoy like Kershaw comes out with a model that I’m attracted to and then find out it’s in a lower end steel. Although I did find out through this thread it’s not as low grade as I first thought. I’m not a big fan of 420 or equivalent unless it’s Bucks 420 which performs at a much higher level than most brands in 420.
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And that's fine, but I guess my point is that they have been doing this all along but it gets amplified during the Holidays (sales). Same threads year after year. I'm not sure what people expect from a sub $20 Chinese produced knife from one of the largest, most well established, and most respected knife companies that stands behind their products. No free lunch. At that price it is better than most of the cloner trash with god knows what steel and no support, but a similar price tag.
 
craytab said:
I'm not sure what people expect from a sub $20 Chinese produced knife from one of the largest, most well established, and most respected knife companies that stands behind their products.
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I wouldn’t say I’m “expecting” anything but it’s disappointing to me when I see a design that really catches my eye only to see it’s another Chinese made knife with bottom of the barrel steel when I know Kershaw could do better at only a slightly higher price point. At the least they could have had it built with 8Cr which should to be much better than 4Cr. But who am I to tell them how to run their company. And I do love Kershaw because of their outstanding designs and customer support and that will never change.
 
vwb563 said:
So if 4Cr14 is equivalent to 420HC then 8Cr13 should theoretically be superior in edge holding to 420HC if heat treated properly? But, I’ve never owned a knife in 8Cr13 that would hold an edge anywhere near as good as my Buck knives in 420HC in my everyday uses. So does that mean that no manufacturer that uses 8Cr has the heat treat dialed in perfectly or does that mean that Buck’s heat treat is far superior to most others and steel composition isn’t as important as heat treatment? (Assuming blade / edge geometry is identical)
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Assuming optimal heat treat on a low end knife is a large assumption. More importantly, as has been mentioned, "assuming" equivalent blade geometry is a big assumption. Especially in this case. Buck uses a very specific blade profile that no other knife manufacturer uses.

In the late 1990's Buck used a CATRA test machine to develop a superior blade profile. At the time, they called it "Edge 2000". In their work, one of the things they proved was that blade profile is more important than blade alloy.

CJ Buck posted about it here in the Buck Forum in 2001.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/catra-edge-testing-results.127499/

The links to the graphs no longer work, so you'll have to take CJ's word for it. But I remember the graphs and they showed the same thing that he says.

To put it in CJ's words,
Optimum edge geometry on good cutlery steel will outperform a common edge geometry on premium steel.
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This is the subcompact car of the knife world, they're inexpensive, they cut stuff just fine and they're designed to sell to people that might, if you're VERY lucky, remember the name of the company that made the knife they're carrying without looking at the blade. If you're on Bladeforums I can assure you that you aren't the target audience. Take a few breaths, calm down and remember that the only reason the high end knives we like get made is because knives like these build the foundation of the companies that make them.
 
knarfeng said:
Assuming optimal heat treat on a low end knife is a large assumption. More importantly, as has been mentioned, "assuming" equivalent blade geometry is a big assumption. Especially in this case. Buck uses a very specific blade profile that no other knife manufacturer uses.

In the late 1990's Buck used a CATRA test machine to develop a superior blade profile. At the time, they called it "Edge 2000". In their work, one of the things they proved was that blade profile is more important than blade alloy.

CJ Buck posted about it here in the Buck Forum in 2001.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/catra-edge-testing-results.127499/

The links to the graphs no longer work, so you'll have to take CJ's word for it. But I remember the graphs and they showed the same thing that he says.

To put it in CJ's words,
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I remember the “Edge 2000” and the CATRA test that Buck bragged about way back when. It was one of the bigger reasons I became a big Buck fan because I absolutely hated to buy a new knife of any brand and have to immediately re-profile the edge so that it would cut like it should. The Bucks with “Edge 2000” were already profiled reasonably well and usually only needed a minor honing to get them laser sharp which is the way I like my knives.

“Optimum edge geometry on good cutlery steel will outperform a common edge geometry on premium steel.” -CJ Buck.

This kinda confirms what I was saying in post #29. I will only add that a great heat treat doesn’t hurt anything either.
 
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dirc said:
I've posted all the junk from kershaw... it's here:

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...8600-model-4cr14.1638507/page-3#post-18735271

knifecenter carries them all...

they list these models as 3cr13:
1306BW Filter
1301BW Starter

4cr13 or 4cr14:
1319 Grinder
1365 Misdirect
1324 Cathode
8600 Portal

and mystery 'stainless steel' models
1338
1318

Personally, I'll stay away from all of the above, Kershaw does sell 8cr13 blades in the injections and many other low cost models which are a great value


vote with your wallet, 3cr13 and 4cr13 only belongs in the handle/liner... NEVER a blade
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If you look at Kershaw's website, you'll see that they consider all of these models, and several newer ones including the Airlock the OP mentioned, to be part of their Starter Series of knives. These knives aren't targeted at knife enthusiasts like us, they're meant to be sold in clamshell packaging at the big box retailers. In that segment of the market, the design of the packaging and knife is far more important than the materials used.

https://kershaw.kaiusa.com/starter-knives.html
 
Silent H said:
If you look at Kershaw's website, you'll see that they consider all of these models, and several newer ones including the Airlock the OP mentioned, to be part of their Starter Series of knives. These knives aren't targeted at knife enthusiasts like us, they're meant to be sold in clamshell packaging at the big box retailers. In that segment of the market, the design of the packaging and knife is far more important than the materials used.

https://kershaw.kaiusa.com/starter-knives.html
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I haven’t seen this but it makes more sense now.
 
It's good times for people who don't care about, or understand knife quality differences. There are lots of interesting and attractive designs. Every once in a while they will hit a value knife home run. They make great gifts for neighbors, friends, and coworkers.
I am not interested 99 times out of 100, but I don't mind. I'm saving money.........and then comes Bestech, Civivi, and Artisan Cutlery :eek:.
 
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