I just don’t understand!

Chronovore said:
The stepping stones in between are in that glass case in the sporting goods section. You know, the Gerber in 7Cr17Mov and the Kershaw in 8Cr13Mov I mentioned. Then he's already buying $30 knives and a friend points him online. Maybe he tries a Sencut in 9Cr18Mov for $32 and it knocks his socks off.

(I haven't tried the new Sencut knives from WE yet. The one I ordered went right to Outpost 76 for testing. I'll share the video in the WE subforum when it posts.)
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Still not getting it. Not surprising. Oh well...
 
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MarkN86 said:
You can't see the quality of a steel just by looking at it, and most people don't run controlled edge holding tests. A good, solid feeling knife with good action would appeal to even a less educated customer.

Even as someone who has knives in good steels like S30V, M390, VG10, etc., I could tolerate a well built, smooth knife with a comparatively poor steel over a knife with great steel with a shoddy knife around it. I love my cheap Kershaw Atmos, but I hated my lemon of a Buck Vantage Pro.

I don't care how much people like the Vantage. After the experience I had sending it back and forth to Buck, and seeing how bad my coworker's Vantage Pro was, I've sworn that model off forever. Buck needs to either polish that turd or flush it, one of the two. You can get a MUCH better USA made knife for a similar price, even from Buck's own lineup.
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Yep. I'll take a good knife with just ok steel over a crappy knife with great steel any day. I have several Vantages so I like the knife. But yeah... it's got problems. For me, the pros outweigh the cons. However, I don't get why they can address some of the issues. The older ones with polished blades seem to flip better. Non of my older ones have lock issues.
 
sabre cat said:
And speaking of not getting, has anyone seen Gerber’s new copy of Benchmade’s Griptilian?
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Is that the Gerber Sedulo? It looks pretty good. Only available on the Gerber store, but seems competitively priced and at least an effort to distinguish between the overseas made crap they have been selling and the better US made stuff
 
RipD said:
However, I don't get why they can address some of the issues.
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Me neither. Always wanted to give a vantage a try but the reports of consistent unfixed issues over the years combined with the wide availability of knives without issues has kept me away. Too bad.
 
chalby said:
Is that the Gerber Sedulo? It looks pretty good. Only available on the Gerber store, but seems competitively priced and at least an effort to distinguish between the overseas made crap they have been selling and the better US made stuff
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Yes, that would be it. Basically a FFG Griptilian 551. It addresses all of the things I do not like about the Grip series.

I like the idea but the thought of paying $100+ for a Gerber folder is just not doable in my mind.
 
craytab said:
Me neither. Always wanted to give a vantage a try but the reports of consistent unfixed issues over the years combined with the wide availability of knives without issues has kept me away. Too bad.
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I would suggest you try one. I use the Vantages I own despite them being less than perfect. The reason is that they cut incredibly well and pocket well. Great clip and they disappear in your pocket. But the adVantage (yes, I did that) is is the blade. If you haven't tried a good hollow grind, it's a different cutting experience than a flat grind and for most things I find it cuts better.

The biggest issue is that the flipping can vary from ok to poor. They have a thumb hole, so flipping isn't necessary. I wish Buck would fix this or get rid of the flipper tab. I have Vantage that locks up at ~80%. It works well. I sent it to Buck. They told me to send it back if it gets to 90% or worse. They were not wrong. (And they fixed some scale issues for me for free while it was there.) Some people think they are heavier than they need to be. True, but they aren't overly heavy. Buck could skeletonize the liners and backspacers.

For under $30 for the basic model Vantage these issues can be overlook. People will say the Ontario Rat is a few dollars more and doesn't have these issues. True. But the Buck pockets better and cuts much better than the Rat.
 
Yo Mama said:
So as a huge Buck fan, would 4Cr14 be equal to Buck's 420hc, with of course the Bose ht? My thought may be wrong, but I'd take the 420hc any day.
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Bucks 420hc has a lovely ht on it I find performs similar to d2 (in my experience)
 
spoonrobot said:
Once upon a time, not very long ago, you could buy more than one knife in S30V at Walmart for $50 or less.

The average knife buyer isn't an idiot and can tell when they've been given a knife that doesn't perform as well as they're used to. Lots of users carried carbon steel their entire lives because they tried early stainless and found it was crap compared to what they were using previously. In the same vein, lots of users are going to find out how much composition named steels from China suck and are going to go back to what they were used to. There's a price and quality floor and I think right now many companies are teasing the bottom. I took the following picture around this time in 2016 - a G10, mystery steel, flipper for $3.87. At the time this was one of the expected outcomes of a Chinese knife manufacturing takeover. Four years hence it's now pretty clear that many, if not most, Chinese companies are more interested in an adaptation of the Walmart model - drive prices low enough to run competitors out of business and then raise prices while reducing quality as manufacturing competition decreases. There are 8cr13 folders with titanium handles and ceramic bearings on the market already...

img_1112-1.jpg
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There’s always been (and always will be) knives with good steel and some with crap steel. But I don’t ever remember a time when you could get S30V for less than $50.
And most Chinese companies use a lot of D2, which if it’s heat treated correctly, can be good stuff.
 
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Yo Mama said:
So as a huge Buck fan, would 4Cr14 be equal to Buck's 420hc, with of course the Bose ht? My thought may be wrong, but I'd take the 420hc any day.
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Corey.L said:
Bucks 420hc has a lovely ht on it I find performs similar to d2 (in my experience)
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There are variables but in general, your garden variety 420HC might be closer to 4Cr14 on edge retention. Buck's 420HC with the Bos heat tends to stand out from the pack. It might give 8Cr13Mov a run for its money but I don't know about D2.

Now, keep in mind that D2 can have a huge range of performance. There can be a big difference between the D2 with a better heat treatment on a Benchmade or a custom knife, and what you might find on a $30 knife from China. While even the cheapest knives running Chinese D2 tend to out-cut 8Cr13Mov by a significant margin, fake steel stamps are an unfortunate reality among lesser known budget brands. For instance, many of the Eafengrow knives on Amazon are stamped "D2" but actually use steels like 8Cr13Mov or 5Cr15.
 
Chronovore said:
There are variables but in general, your garden variety 420HC might be closer to 4Cr14 on edge retention. Buck's 420HC with the Bos heat tends to stand out from the pack. It might give 8Cr13Mov a run for its money but I don't know about D2.

Now, keep in mind that D2 can have a huge range of performance. There can be a big difference between the D2 with a better heat treatment on a Benchmade or a custom knife, and what you might find on a $30 knife from China. While even the cheapest knives running Chinese D2 tend to out-cut 8Cr13Mov by a significant margin, fake steel stamps are an unfortunate reality among lesser known budget brands. For instance, many of the Eafengrow knives on Amazon are stamped "D2" but actually use steels like 8Cr13Mov or 5Cr15.
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I’m saying similarly, as in I wouldn’t really care which one I had but I would prefer the d2
 
A friend of mine loves knives. He has stuff ranging from Amazon mystery Damascus fixed blades to CRKT blades. He doesn't know what steel is what and he doesn't care. I can see how cutlery companies sell all kinds of stuff the learned would scoff at. These companies are in it for $, they don't make knives because they have a passion for fine cutlery.
 
You might also remember, that $20 3-pack of cheap knives has a lifetime guarantee, and Kershaw will replace them pretty darned close to "no questions asked."
 
vwb563 said:
Why do companies like Kershaw keep using cheaper and cheaper steels. This morning as I was looking at some of the Black Friday specials at one of the online retailers sites I saw a Kershaw that caught my eye. I really liked what I saw as far as design goes. It was called the Airlock I believe but as soon as I started looking at the knife’s specs I quickly became disappointed when I saw the blade steel. It had a 4Cr14 stainless blade! I mean really??? I’m not the greatest fan of 8Cr but I will usually not let that stop me from buying a knife if I like the design well enough but now they’re using 4Cr stainless! I think I’ll pass Kershaw. Anyone know what 4Cr14 stainless is equivalent to? 420J2 maybe or something worse?
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Just buy one of the Milwaukee tool steel folders.
 
Chronovore said:
There are variables but in general, your garden variety 420HC might be closer to 4Cr14 on edge retention. Buck's 420HC with the Bos heat tends to stand out from the pack. It might give 8Cr13Mov a run for its money but I don't know about D2.

Now, keep in mind that D2 can have a huge range of performance. There can be a big difference between the D2 with a better heat treatment on a Benchmade or a custom knife, and what you might find on a $30 knife from China. While even the cheapest knives running Chinese D2 tend to out-cut 8Cr13Mov by a significant margin, fake steel stamps are an unfortunate reality among lesser known budget brands. For instance, many of the Eafengrow knives on Amazon are stamped "D2" but actually use steels like 8Cr13Mov or 5Cr15.
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Just out of curiosity, is there data that shows 420hc to have similar edge retention to 4Cr14?

I am genuinely curious, as I have had good experiences with Buck, Kershaw, and Ontario knives with 420hc. If 4Cr14 performs similarly, I might have to take a closer look at knives made from that steel.
 
MolokaiRider said:
Just out of curiosity, is there data that shows 420hc to have similar edge retention to 4Cr14?

I am genuinely curious, as I have had good experiences with Buck, Kershaw, and Ontario knives with 420hc. If 4Cr14 performs similarly, I might have to take a closer look at knives made from that steel.
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I only said it might. While I've used 3Cr13 and 5Cr15, I don't know that I've ever had a knife in 4Cr14. An important issue is that it's a very cheap steel that gets used in very cheap knives. Whatever it could accomplish in theory, I'm guessing that the average heat treatment for 4Cr14Mov would be on the opposite end of the spectrum from Buck's 420HC.

As far as theoretical edge retention, they have about the same amount of carbon...


Here are the same steels compared with 8Cr13Mov for contrast:


Just for fun, here is a graph comparing common members of the XCrYMov series:


The lowest steel in that series I'd recommend for EDC is 9Cr18Mov. It's a decent budget steel that normally has decent edge retention. On the Civivi and Sencut knives from WE, it gets an exceptional heat treatment. It also has excellent corrosion resistance.
 
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