I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels

Discussion in 'General Knife Discussion' started by Larrin, May 1, 2020.

  1. Larrin

    Larrin Gold Member Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Gold Member

    Jan 17, 2004
    Recently I was able to acquire a used CATRA machine, so I heat treated just about every knife steel I had, made 57 knives with the help of knifemaker Shawn Houston, and tested them all to see which cut the longest. For a few of the steels I did multiple heat treatments to look at a couple variables and to see the effect of hardness. I also compared edge retention and toughness to see which steels have the best balance of properties. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/
     
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  2. evilgreg

    evilgreg Why so serious? Gold Member

    Dec 25, 2012
    Wow, this is pretty awesome. Thanks for the great read. One of the things that always made me question other edge retention test results I've seen was the number of uncontrolled variables, some of them massively important (e.g. basic geometry).
     
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  3. Currawong

    Currawong Platinum Member Platinum Member

    May 19, 2012
    Amazing stuff. The scale of that project is huge. Thanks for doing it and sharing the results!

    You going to sell the knives to recover some of the costs? :)
     
  4. Larrin

    Larrin Gold Member Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Gold Member

    Jan 17, 2004
    I'm not sure anyone wants rectangle knives without handles, but I will probably keep them so that I can do side-by-side comparisons in the future.
     
  5. rxavage

    rxavage

    Aug 16, 2014
    Probably the best article so far. This is the kind of stuff we need.
     
  6. Curse The Sky

    Curse The Sky

    25
    Nov 4, 2015
    Outstanding article, Larrin. Thank you.

    Just a couple of future ideas. I know these things take an incredible amount of time, but I'd love to see:
    • Edge retention (TCC) vs. sharpening fineness of one or two steels, e.g. AEB-L and 52100 @ 200, 400, 600, 1200, 2000, 4000+ grit
    • Toughness, hardness, and hardness consistency of a given steel such as 52100 heat treated in different ways, but quenched and tempered uniformly. E.g. oven austenitized at 1525F for 15 minutes, oven austenitized at 1525F for 1 minute, forge / torch austenitized at best visual approximation of 1525F for 5 minutes, forge / torch austenitized at best visual of 1525F until "even" and immediately quenched.
     
  7. l1ranger

    l1ranger Gold Member Gold Member

    791
    Jan 27, 2017
    dont be so sure about that - but hanging on them for future tests, etc. is probably a better idea -I havent read the article yet, but plan to when i have some time
     
    DeadboxHero likes this.
  8. Larrin

    Larrin Gold Member Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Gold Member

    Jan 17, 2004
    The article does have a chart comparing 120 grit, 400 grit, and 0.5 micron diamond paste with AEB-L. So hopefully that will help with that question some.

    I have a lot of articles about heat treating specific steels, including 52100. I'm not sure I will do any torch hardening though, as it's very difficult to control your heat treatment that way, so it ends up being a test of how well you operated the torch. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/05/13/how-to-heat-treat-52100/
     
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  9. Insipid Moniker

    Insipid Moniker Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 28, 2011
    This is an incredible article. Well done, Larrin, and thank you for putting in the time and effort.
     
  10. Blue Sky

    Blue Sky Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 16, 2002
    That was impressive. And that was an understatement.
     
  11. JamesofArc

    JamesofArc

    308
    Apr 19, 2016
    So what steel held its edge the longest?
     
    Larrin likes this.
  12. abcdef

    abcdef

    Oct 28, 2005
    Just incredible. There can be no nerds before you.
     
  13. Larrin

    Larrin Gold Member Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Gold Member

    Jan 17, 2004
    What's your guess? S125V, 15V, Rex 86, or Rex 121?
     
  14. Eli Chaps

    Eli Chaps Gold Member Gold Member Basic Member

    Apr 20, 2018
    Huge thank you Larrin and @DeadboxHero . That's a ton of work and genuinely appreciated!

    And big thank you to Mrs. Larrin for her sacrifice. :)

    I'm off to read it again...
     
    Justin Schmidt, Fixall, pxl and 4 others like this.
  15. patrickguignot

    patrickguignot

    265
    Sep 10, 2015
    Very impressive article...and incredible dedication to control all the variables. Thanks a lot for your work Larrin (and thanks also to Shawn) :thumbsup:
    One small critic : it would have helped to have colored dots and full steel labels also in the "Toughness-Edge Retention Balance" charts instead of all-blue dots.

    Interesting to see 3V beat A8 Mod in edge retention with same toughness.
    Also interesting to see S30V with same result than M4.

    I have one question about 1095 : what is the purpose of this steel? Why is it so popular for knives companies ? It has very low edge retention and very low corrosion resistance. And, compared to other low alloy steels, the toughness is unimpressive (for instance compared to 5160 or 52100).
    Why the myriads of knives in 1095 steel (ESEE, TOPS, Ontario, Ka-Bar...etc)?
    Why not using something like S35VN? You have MUCH better edge retention, MUCH better corrosion resistance and same toughness (around 10 ft-lbs).
    I understand the purpose of 5160 or 52100 (high toughness) but IMHO it makes no sense to use a low toughness low alloy steel like 1095 or 01. You have all possible downsides and no upsides.
     
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  16. Larrin

    Larrin Gold Member Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Gold Member

    Jan 17, 2004
    1095 is very inexpensive which helps. It is one of the oldest knife steels. S35VN is orders of magnitude more expensive. For large knives the 1095 is easier to sharpen which matters in big chopping knives. And historically 1095 has a good reputation for toughness so they probably view it as a good choice despite the low results when it is actually tested.
     
  17. patrickguignot

    patrickguignot

    265
    Sep 10, 2015
    I didn't know S35VN was so expensive compared to 1095.
    What is the price of AEB-L compared to 1095?
    AEB-L is also an old steel, easy to sharpen, with more edge retention than 1095 (360 vs 316 at 61HRC). It's stainless and it has three times the toughness compared to 1095 (30 ft-lbs vs 10 ft-lbs).
     
    Alsharif likes this.
  18. Eli Chaps

    Eli Chaps Gold Member Gold Member Basic Member

    Apr 20, 2018
    This should absolutely be a sticky in the M,T,&E subforum.

    Paging @Blues
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
  19. MarkN86

    MarkN86

    451
    Sep 3, 2012
    That was really a lot of work. Thank you for the effort and going through the headache and cost to provide this data. This is really informative and it definitely challenges some of what we think we know about steels and their performance.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
    JJ_Colt45 likes this.
  20. comis

    comis Gold Member Gold Member

    806
    May 17, 2013
    Thank you for this fantastic study, I am sure this will be a great reference for many consumers and makers in years to come, really appreciate it to say the least!

    Just one humble request, any chance we may see X55CrMo14 (1.4110) tested for toughness and edge retention? If I am not mistaken, that's SAK steel and just curious where it stands.
     
    Justin Schmidt likes this.

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