I'm a sharpening Kung Fu Master!

fulloflead

fulloflead

Joined
May 3, 2002
Messages
6,192
I'm making this post in order to brag. It's as simple as that.

I think I deserve the right because of my recent accomplishment.

This will be a long post, but if you're at all interested in super-sharp knives you might want to read about this heart-warming experience.

Once upon a time...
About a year ago I went on rec.knives complaining that I couldn't get my knives "shaving sharp". (Really, go look it up on the forum under Nunya Business.)
After about a month of research and some advise from that forum I learned to sharpen correctly and learned (I know now it was only a BASIC learning) how to strop.
Eventually, I got my knives so sharp they'd make the hairs jump off my arm with the passing of the blade! I was very happy and I posted that I HAD learned and I bragged to my friends a bit and done some of their knives.

Occasionally I would work extra-hard on a knife and be extra-anal about the angle and everything and get it extra-sharp and then test it on my arm hair. But somehow, since that goal had been met, I needed a better test...

I clearly remember, in a different apartment, standing in the bathroom holding one of my girlfriend's hairs that I'd found in the sink. She has a little longer than shoulder-length hair. Anyway, I was standing in the bathroom of my old apartment with one of her hairs suspended between my index finger and thumb of my left hand. With my right hand I continually swiped at it with a newly sharpened and stropped arm-hair-popping knife. Of course, the hair just swung away and did not cut. It didn't bother me, but I joked to myself that someday; just SOMEDAY, I would be able to cut a hair suspended that way. REALISTICALLY, I knew it was impossible - something out of a Sean Connery movie and gave up on the whole idea.

Recently I met a nice and generous man that goes by SPECOPS on the forums. We've talked and traded and shot the **** and eventually got on the subject of strops. He happens to be an expert on the subject of strops. Over the last week or so he taught me a great deal about stropping. A GREAT deal. He even sent me to the store to get some special polishing compound to rub into my strop. I've been experimenting with his theories and techniques over the last several days and have been getting increasing results as he answered my questions and continued to teach me.

And, now, his stropping lessons, combined with the other things I've learned about sharpening over the last year has brought me to a climax. (Yeah, almost that kind too.)

Tonight, I spent about an hour sharpening my Benchmade Axis D2 AFCK with my mix of Lansky and Gatco sharpening systems. After that I used my strop, loaded on one side with White Compound from Sears and the other side with Red Compound from the same source, to the radiator next to the sofa and spent the next 30 minutes stropping. I worked slowly and deliberately, being careful with the angle. When I was done, the edge reflected light like a diamond ring. It was as smooth as any steel I've ever seen.

I tried shaving my arm like I always do to test the edge. I've been doing a lot of sharpening testing lately, so I'm missing a lot of hair on my arm, so I chose a spot on the inside of my elbow where there was still some light hair. This was a big mistake and I frightened the HELL out of myself because I immediately cut myself right on top of that vein! The blade did not slide down my arm removing hair but, instead, dug straight in. It's OK. It mearly resembles a paper cut - a light cut filled with blood, but didn't bleed outside of the cut. I tried again a little further from my vein and, again, cut myself with a matching wound. I tried a third time and was, obviously, easliy able to remove hair except that the blade didn't want to slide down my arm very easily at all.

SO, I went out and smoked a cigar and congratulated myself. During my smoke it occurred to me to try the hanging-hair test I had fantasized about nearly a year ago.

When I came back in, I immediately went to the bathroom and found one of my girlfriend's hairs in the sink. I held it by one end and took a slow swipe. It swung away. I took a second swipe a little faster and was left with only half of the hair hanging from my fingers...

I'VE DONE IT! I'VE DONE IT! I'VE DONE IT!

I've done the impossible. I've cut a suspended hair with a knife that I sharpened myself by hand!

I nearly cried! This is the greatest knife-moment of my life! I thought I'd share it with you all.

There's only one problem. I think you know what it is. I own a lot of knives.

Once again...
Thank you, SPECOPS, for giving me the missing link and helping me fulfill a dream.

-fulloflead
 
Your going to sit here and tell us in this long post about how you filled your dream (and I am happy for you) with this new info you got on Stromping, And then not tell us the new info?? :(
 
Well, I don't know if it's my place to teach what my master taught me. Maybe SPECOPS would like to teach his art first hand.

I couldn't possibly write the art as if it were my own! I wouldn't want to insult my master.

I'd be more than happy to share all I've learned over the last year, but I think I should, first, offer the opportunity for SPECOPS to teach what was passed on to him from his grandfather.

I will probably hear from him tomorrow. I'll point him to this thread.

-fulloflead
 
ahh grasshopper, there is yet another seal of sharpening enlightenment for you to attain. The monks at the knife sharpening monastery in the Tibetan Himalayas, where I spent 25 years studying used to call it hair droppin' sharp.

One fixes the knife in a vice with the blade facing upwards and holds a single strand of hair (from a 16 year virgin) above the knife at right angles. One drops the hair on to the knife from a height of no more than 2 feet. If your blade is truly sharp the the hair will part as if drifts down past the blade.

Then, and only then, will you have achieved the state of enlightenment that we call - Sansharpa
 
:D The congratulations should go to you, all I did was give you some pointers. You're now officially a knife sharpening Sifu! I told you with a little experience and the right technique you'd get your knives sharper than you'd ever seen. You talked about the hanging hair, I used to (befroe I cut my hair) pull a hair out of my waist long braid or one of my wifes hairs, the same length and actually could cut it quickly and you could see the hair get thinner as I cut it at an angle. This was usually after someone commented on how sharp my knives were and I didn't want them to demonstrate on themselves so I did the hair splitting trick. I'm sure glad you didn't cut your arm off! I told you that everyone that borrowed my knife cut themselves.
Congratulations to you on your success and be CAREFUL!
Your Bud,
SPECOPS.
 
Originally posted by Ming65
One fixes the knife in a vice with the blade facing upwards and holds a single strand of hair (from a 16 year virgin) above the knife at right angles. One drops the hair on to the knife from a height of no more than 2 feet. If your blade is truly sharp the the hair will part as if drifts down past the blade.

Then, and only then, will you have achieved the state of enlightenment that we call - Sansharpa
Click to expand...

THAT'S what I saw in that Sean Connery movie! Except it was a sword.

It's impossible. I'd have to see it.

Hey, don't ruin my moment. How rude!:D
 
Originally posted by Specops
:D The congratulations should go to you, all I did was give you some pointers.
Your Bud,
SPECOPS.
Click to expand...

Thank you, Master.:D
So do you want to share your technique with the forum or should I? If I do it, I'd start from the beginning with a dull knife with the Lansky/Gatco system and go from there.

-fulloflead
 
Grasshopper. Some say they will believe it when they see it, but you must believe it before you see it.......

Luke - I don't believe that !

Yoda (shaking his head) - This is why you fail

OK I'll stop now

I've never heard of anything like that I was just being silly. Although I have heard stories of sword makers in ancient Japan placing a sword in a stream and only considering is sharp enough when a leaf carried by the current was sliced by the blade.
 

Luke - I don't believe that !

Yoda (shaking his head) - This is why you fail
Click to expand...


BLASPHAMY!
You've never heard of anything like that, yet you quoted YODA. You should be ASHAMED!:eek:

The wisdom of YODA is not to be used willy-nilly!
 
You have earned the right to share your new found techniques, I'm happy to share better knife sharpening methods with our fellow knife lovers. Remember to stress the points that made the most difference in your sharpening. You just learned it fresh and would do a good job describing how to do it. I have to mention that the real credit goes to my Ancestors as far back as I know, this method has been passed from father to son in my family for many generations. I have my Great-Granddads Strop, it's like a museum piece, no telling how many stories that strop could tell, he was a Texas Ranger and made his own knives and was very well known for his prowess with a blade.
Carry on my friend!
Your Buddy,
Specops.
:D
 
I really like this post as I felt the same way after hitting the "shaving" point. A big congratulations! For me, this new skill drastically increased my interest in better and better knives (which all seemed to need an improved edge). My first thanks went out to Ben Dale and the Edgepro system. After time however I found that my true thanks should go to both Joe Talmadge & Bladeforums members. Strange as it may sound, after reading enough about others' experience I found that I can hit shaving sharp using a variety of methods, including freehand. What a great thing the internet is now that we can now share this experience - most of the friends I told at the time thought I was nuts. Now we all hunt together and somehow I have become the most popular guy in camp. :D
 
I know exactly what you mean about being the most popular guy in camp. It's usually the guy with the sharpest knife, who knows how to skin and butcher game the right way and sharpen his hunting buddies knives as sharp as his!
Believeme, I know the feeling! LOL but I never mind helping out, I was lucky to have a Dad that took the time to teach me the way to do things the right way but the most convinient way. It can mean a lot when butchering an Elk in sub-zero temps and wanting to get back to camp to be able to do it quick and still do it right.
Be well,
Specops;)
 
Hey guys, remember stopping is not the end all be all. There are times when you would prfer the toothy edge you get fresh off the hone/stone, when cutting tomatoes for example.

FF the true path to sharpening is not being able to split hairs, as much as it is knowing, what method to use to sharpen, what type of steel and blade geometry, and how to attain the most serviceable edge, with the least removal of steel.

Sharpening is a skill like anything else, the more you practice the better you get, do you ever achieve perfection? No.

The best you can hope for is a balance between knowing what you want, and the ability to learn the skills needed to achieve it.:cool:

For what it's worth here is my current sharpening routine,

Having been sharpening my own blades for the last 20 years I've come to notice a few things in regards to what you use to sharpen a knife. Diamond hones remove massive amounts of steel and sharpen a blade fast but even with the finest hone you will still need to finish your blade on a strop or ceramic hone to smooth out the edge. Always sharpen at the desired angle,(between 17-24 degrees, depending on the thickness of the blade) till you get a wire edge on one side, (the best way to feel for this is to slide your thumbnail from the spine side, or back of the blade towards the edge) when you encounter a wire edge it will feel like a little lip has formed where the wire edge has rolled over. Next sharpen the opposite side till you achieve the same result. Done on a Fine Diamond Hone, finish off by repeating the process using lighter pressure on each subsequent stroke and the wire edge will become smaller. When the wire edge is barely noticeable with your fingernail. Finish with a leather strop and stropping compound by applying a reasonable amount of force and dragging the blade backwards on the leather at a slightly less angle than you sharpened,(the leather will actually curl around the edge of the blade and wear off the wire edge) after a few strokes on the leather on both side you should have a finished edge. When the edge of the sharpened blade is rested on the smooth part of your thumbnail it will dig in, (bite into the nail with no additional pressure), Your knife should now be shaving sharp.

Diamonds are more aggressive and faster than wet stones or oilstones but will accomplish the same results with a smoother more polished edge, and depending on the grit of the stone may take a lot longer. The key either way is repetition, the more you perform the same task your brain starts memorizing the pathways through your body needed to accomplish this task. Eventually holding an angle, smoothness of stroke, all become second nature, and the task becomes easier. That’s why it always looks easier when someone else whose good at it does it.

My way is not the only way but it works for me, if you feel confident enough to attempt your own blades, start on a cheaper knife that your not afraid of ruining, and remember it’s easier to sharpen a knife that’s not dull, than to sharpen one that is. So don’t wait till your knife won’t even cut butter before you dress up that edge. LOL

PS as for my preference I prefer a diamond hone just because I think it's quicker, and more versatile I can accomplish the same thing with one hone by just varying pressure to the blade as I sharpen.
:)
 
The method you described is very close to the one I use, I just went into great detail to help fulloflead know every facet of what he was doing and why. Certainly there is a difference between the edge you want on different kitchen cutlery & working knives but!then there is that SPECIAL edge you want on that slicked up carry knife you have in your pocket. Fulloflead is quite well versed on blade geometry and regular honing. He had just never had anyone tell him step by step from starting with a piece of leather how to ready and season a strop, prepare the blade to be stropped and the 123's of stropping. I went to great detail yet kept out the excess bull that he needed to know to achieve and retain the razor sharp edge he had worked so hard to acquire. I told him the way I was taught by my Dad, who was taught by my Grand-Father and so on. Stropping is pretty much stropping but there are better ways for different blades and edges. After he's had time to practice a little he'll find it's as easy as you explained, he just had never been told the why's and how's and I don't mind helping a friend. It generally only takes me a lick or two to keep my knives shaving sharp because I never let them get dull, the great thing about stropping is once you have the bevel set on your edge it doesn't take but a few licks on the strop to keep it hair popping sharp and the way I sharpen my knives they stay sharp. I've always been a big fan of stropping because as you said you can retain a very sharp edge without removing hardly any noticable steel over years of use. I have knives that are older than my Father and the blades are in great shape because we all used a strop to keep our knives sharp after we got the starting bevel we desired on the blade. I carry a multitool these days, actually a couple. A Gerber and a Sebertool M-4. I always carry a SAK with me as my working knife, it's razor sharp but with a sharper angle on the edge. My never leave home without it knife however has a long smooth bevel that has been kept sharp with a strop from the day I got it and stays as sharp as anyone would ever need a knife to be. I live and work on a ranch and it involves a lot of cutting of leather, rope and many tough materials, the guys who come around here always ask to borrow my knife for one reason or the other and it never fails. As I'm warning them to be careful they cut themselves, with a surprised look on their face they say "That's the sharpest damned knife I've ever seen, how do you do it". That explains the usual pile of knives on my mantle waiting to be sharpened:eek: I do it for fun though because most people aren't inclined to put the time in that it requires to get the edge right then strop it to the right degree of sharpness without overdoing it. With all the gizmos and gadgets today us old free handers are a dieyng breed. Most people prefer to clamp a blade into a vise and quickly saw the edge down until it will cut. I prefer the tried and true method passed down from generation to generation in my family, freehand honing then stropping and when done properly and maintained properly the knives I sharpen stay sharp with very little maintenance. I hate to have someone hand me a relatively new knife with more steel ground off the blade than I probably would ever take off of it! It's one of those things that makes me sick:barf: . I'll usually give them the standard lecture of how they've take many years life off the blade then agree to sharpen it and repair the damage as best as I can as long as they'll learn a lesson from it, if it's brought back to me again with my beautiful edge ground down I just tell them to keep it because they are going to have a nub left soon anyway. But the one's who appreciate a fine edge that is sharp and stays sharp and bring it back to me to re-sharpen or learn to do it right themselves is a job worthwhile. I'll tell you the short version of a cowhand here on the ranch. One day this boy that trains horses here (it's a racehorse ranch) was custom fitting a halter to a green broke colt to start gentling but he had forgotten his knife, I was there working with them and he asked to borrow mine. I gave him the warning I give everyone before I hand my knife to them "Be careful, it's sharp". I guess their idea of sharp and mine are two different things because 8 out of 10 will cut themselves right off the bat the first time they use my knife. He was going to be doing some fairly complex shaping of leather and cut right through it to the bone in his thumb! With a strange look on his face he gasped "I never knew a knife could be that sharp!" I told him I'd warned him and to come to the ranch house and I'd stitch him up. I got him fixed up and made sure he had his tetanous shot recently, that's one thing most working cowboys keep track of and he had. He sheepishly said he had a special knife in his truck and asked if I'd sharpen it for him because he didn't want to mess up the pretty etching on the blade, I said sure, lets check it out. He pulled out an original Schatt & Morgan Stockman, not a re-made one, an original. He had gotten it from his Dad or Grandad and knew it was a special knife. I told him it really shouldn't be sharpened at all because it was quite a collectors item, original box and all. He said that when it was given to him he'd made a promise that he'd use it because it was a good knife and that was the reason it was given to him, he just hadn't found anyone he would trust to sharpen it yet, I could see why. It was beautiful, the original etching with Schatt & Morgan's makers mark and "File and Wire Tested" scrolled on it with intricate filework on just about every non cutting surface. I asked him if he was positive he wanted to have it sharpened, he said he had a promise to keep. I said I would under one condition, he had to bring it to me until he learned the right way to sharpen it, we had a deal. It didn't take much work to get a beautiful edge on all three blades and I do mean they were all beautiful, these were the knives of legend. I hadn't put as much as a knick on the etching and the edge was as close to perfect as I could get it on all of the blades. I stopped him the next morning on the way to the barn and hollered that his knife was ready, he couldn't believe it. I guess he thought it would be a month or something. He came running up the porch and I opened up the flannel cloth I had it wrapped in and he carefully opened it and one blade at a time looked it over and he actually was near to tears! He was so proud, he had his heirloom knife with the edge he wanted on it. That was about three years ago and I just touched it up a day or so back for him, he'd stayed true to his word. When it started to get dull he brought it to me and I cleaned it and oiled it and then touched up the blade's and after all of the use he's put into it the blades they still look like they have seen very little use. Man those knives are a work of art, it was a real treasure to get to work on it and I enjoy keeping it in good shape for him. Oh, I've taught him how to sharpen a knife the right way, he just won't even trust himself when it comes to that knife. So I added one more old time knife man to the list, actually I have converted several serrated slinging, sawing instead of slicing so called knife using guys to the way of the real edge and they all carry knives of quality with a good edge on it. I love a beautiful knife and can't stand to see one mistreated any more than I can a beautiful woman, either one of them will get me to fight just about as fast as the other, I just won't tolerate rude behavior to a work of art, a beautiful knife or a beautiful woman! They both have to be handled with tender love and care. My Wife appreciates my attitude too! LOL:D Keep your knives sharp, your guns oiled and stay off the skyline.
Vaya Con Dios,
SPECOPS.
 
Great thread, and great stories so far. As one who also sharpens free hand I am really interested in your stropping techniques. I have never been able to get an edge I like with a strop.
 
OK. I'll try to keep it short and to the point and anyone can ask for details from myself of SPECOPS.

I got the knife to regular shaving sharp using a combo of Lansky and Gatco systems. I like the Lansky stones, but prefer the Gatco guide clip and stand. Besides, Lansky has an Ultra Coarse Diamond stone which shortens the work.

UCD stone until wire edge. Turn. Other side takes less time. Wire edge. Turn.
Medium Diamond stone: Repeat
Fine non-diamond stone: Repeat
Ultra Fine non-diamond stone: Repeat twice polishing ALL cut marks from the bevel until it's smooth and uniform.

I got a nice strop off KnifeCenter that's rough on one side and smooth as a baby's butt on the other. I went to Sears and bought polishing compound from the tool department where the buffing wheels. They look like gold inguts. I got a White one and a Red one. I rubbed the conditioner I got with the strop into the coarse side really well. I used quite a bit. The smooth side had already been done. I scrubbed it in with a clean toothbrush. Next, on the coarse side I rubbed the hell out of it with the white brick using it like a crayon. Then I scrubbed it in real well with a freshly-cleaned toothbrush. Repeat. Scrub. Repeat. Scrub. The smooth side had already been done with Red, but I did it again. I used so much that it tended to build up on the surface in a few places. It didn't seem to matter. Scrub with freshly-cleaned toothbrush. I stropped a few of my cheaper knives quickly on both sides to get the compound worked in.

I renewed the compound crayon-style on both sides a little, but didn't scrub it in this time. I took the D-2 Benchmade that I'd already sharpened to shaving sharp and started to strop on the White/Rough side.
I strop SLOWLY! Being very careful to keep the angle. I hold the spine off the strop only about 1/8 inch. I also ONLY work parallel to the sides of the strop. I don't draw the knife sideways off the side of the strop where the edge is rough. I don't use a sideways motion at all. I just move vertically and that's all. I will reposition to focus on different areas of the blade. I use about the weight of my arm on the stroke and hold the strop very tightly so it bows very little during the process. It took me about 50 strokes on each side.
Next I switched to the smooth/red side. I used the same technique except I was more gentle, pressing more lightly, and did this about 15 strokes each side.

That's it. I can cut a hanging hair repeatedly with it.
Now I'm going to try some different steels to see if I can accomplish the same thing. I understand that D2 is a very good steel and I tend to agree. Next will be Gin-1 then maybe ATS-34. If I can accomplish the hanging-hair trick with ATS-34 I'll be seriously happy. I've always found ATS-34 to be especially difficult to sharpen well.
 
Ya brought a tear to the eye of this big ol'lug with your S&M stockman story. Sure wish I could see that knife. I hope you realize just how lucky you are to work where you do, and have all this constant access to fine knives. I hope you do share your stropping secrets with the rest of us. I have yet to achieve this degree of sharpening nirvana.
Welcome to BFC, hope you contribute frequently... you sound like a very knowledgable source.
thank you,
Mongo
 
Finish with a leather strop and stropping compound
Click to expand...
Thank you to all the contributors on this thread for taking the time to share your sharpening techniques. For each of you my question is "where did you get your strop and stropping compound". I know this has been asked and answered before, but please humour me.
 
I'm glad you enjoyed the story about the S&H, it is a special knife and I do feel privelidged to get to work with such a fine piece of art.
I've found out a little of the history behind the knife from the guy. His GrandFather bought several special made S&H's when his first Grandchild was born, they're like the originals but fileworked on the springs and liners and engraved bolsters, it's absolutely beautiful, stag of the very finest and hand etched blades, all of the blades were etched very finely and the steel is a wonder! I have taken care of that boy's knife for three years now and it looks as good now as it did then, actually better from the polishing the scales got from all the handling, absolutely beautiful.
I'll be happy to help you anyway I can, Fulloflead posted a note to this thread giving the basics, read it and if you still have any questions contact him or me. He is a very astute student and since he's just learning the way to really make a strop work for him he might be able to give you a fresher idea of the kind of answers you need, if not then give me a holler and we'll talk it out.
I'm always happy to help a fellow knife lover so feel free to e-mail me anytime even just to shoot the bull.
Be well,
Specops :D
 
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