Is the fascination with patina a built-in human condition?

Eric H said:
Wow! I LOVE that Imperial! (I am OBSESSED with picking up a "Boys knife" like that right now.)
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I wanted one for years as a replacement for the one missing from my dad's " hatchet " knife combo that got lost before I could get it. I looked up the thing when I was a teenager and instantly fell in love with the knife regardless of the fact that it was the missing pair ( though it never left the factory in a combo set ) to my hatchet.
Last year I spied this one in a members axe / tool haul picture and not too long after 18$ brought it to my door.
 
Like 1095? Well by George let's start a 'Sell Us Some Celluloid' SFO petition for Charlie! ;)

Point being, if the old knife makers had access to good, affordable stainless steel and the tools to work with it I suspect more of them would have done so. You might say 'no comparison', but just as cell has it's penchant for self destruction, so will carbon steel go from lovely patina to rust overnight. (If you don't believe it see Buzzbait's tale of woe with rusting knives thread earlier this summer.) I was skeptical until it happened to me a few weeks ago to a knife just sitting on my shelf.

That said, I can't give up that lovely patina completely (gratuitous knife photo warning :thumbsup:). You can have it both ways.
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Hickory n steel said:
I wanted one for years as a replacement for the one missing from my dad's " hatchet " knife combo that got lost before I could get it. I looked up the thing when I was a teenager and instantly fell in love with the knife regardless of the fact that it was the missing pair ( though it never left the factory in a combo set ) to my hatchet.
Last year I spied this one in a members axe / tool haul picture and not too long after 18$ brought it to my door.
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Oddly enough, when I went to my local antique shop today (I stop in there every few weeks) there was one of those Imperials on the shelf (same model as yours I believe, except it still had the dark brown/black plastic (?) scales).

Tag said $10, but the blade had been sharpened away quite a bit over the years, so I passed. (And changed on a much better one off that auction site!)

Just struck a chord with me that a pattern I'd never once too a second look at until two days ago shows up in my corner of the woods. Meant I HAD to get one.

Sorry about the thread hijack--count me in as a patina lover--natural or forced. Here's my peanut that I'm letting patina naturally. Process moves pretty slow when you have too many knives in your rotation.

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Eric H said:
Oddly enough, when I went to my local antique shop today (I stop in there every few weeks) there was one of those Imperials on the shelf (same model as yours I believe, except it still had the dark brown/black plastic (?) scales).

Tag said $10, but the blade had been sharpened away quite a bit over the years, so I passed. (And changed on a much better one off that auction site!)

Just struck a chord with me that a pattern I'd never once too a second look at until two days ago shows up in my corner of the woods. Meant I HAD to get one.

Sorry about the thread hijack--count me in as a patina lover--natural or forced. Here's my peanut that I'm letting patina naturally. Process moves pretty slow when you have too many knives in your rotation.

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Mine had solid black almost coffee black delrin ( don't mind that it's much earlier than my hatchet ) while my hatchet had a hollow molded plastic with cross bracing inside.
I would've rather found one out in the wild, but antique shops here in NorCal are higher than a kite and I've never found one anyways.
So did you actually get that one from the bay ?

Now as to not take this thread off topic, here's some more patina on what used to be a moral #711.

It was only lightly used when I got it, but now it's got some nice patina on the blade, on the guard I made, and on the handle / ferrule from the old awl which came from my grandfather. ( Incidentally that's where the guard material came from as well )
 
I don't see patina as often as I think I should. I wonder about the buffed old knives that seem to attract bidders like shiny objects attract racoons! I've seen old knives with blades so buffed that looked like they had melted away in the sun. All of the original finish was stripped away. And they often get more attention than knives with the original finish well preserved. I suspect that buffed blades on GEC knives would not have the same appeal. Perhaps it's because everyone knows what original GEC knives look like. And nobody would claim that a buffed GEC knife was mint.
 
Hickory n steel said:
Mine had solid black almost coffee black delrin ( don't mind that it's much earlier than my hatchet ) while my hatchet had a hollow molded plastic with cross bracing inside.
I would've rather found one out in the wild, but antique shops here in NorCal are higher than a kite and I've never found one anyways.
So did you actually get that one from the bay ?

Now as to not take this thread off topic, here's some more patina on what used to be a moral #711.

It was only lightly used when I got it, but now it's got some nice patina on the blade, on the guard I made, and on the handle / ferrule from the old awl which came from my grandfather. ( Incidentally that's where the guard material came from as well )
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Yes, I'll start a new thread once it arrives.

Until then, one of my patina'd silver dollar rings (forced) and my Robeson Shureedge EO jack (natural):

mtA2Mz.jpg
 
There are well thought out, good responses here as usual for the porch. Hopefully I can express my thoughts with as much grace as the regulars here.

I have a friend who is a 4th Generation farmer working the same land his family did. His knife is a Case CV yellow Trapper. It has actual rust on the blade not just patina. Not my business to approve or disapprove his knife but it does fit him and his situation. It is sharp and the edge is cared for. The guy wouldn't think about "forcing" a patina though. Except edging it for use he puts as little time as possible into it.

My grandfather had a farm when he lived. He kept his tools in good but not perfect condition. He wouldn't let one rust but he didn't have energy to polish or re-satin a blade like I do. He would laugh at the idea of "forcing a patina" on something as he only had time to maintain for use tools not "make it look cool".

When I see people talking about taking a new knife and leaving it in mustard over night then talking about how good the knife looks I feel they are looking at a different knife from me. Bluing, hot or cold I understand and have done it on guns and knives of mine. That wasn't really for looks though. Bluing and patinas don't really do much to prevent rust in my experience either. They are rust magnets as are scratches and abrasions on steel ( as are inclusions but we don't get that much anymore in our steel like the 1960's). In NC in July or August if you leave a fingerprint on a blade it will be permanent in a short amount of time. I understand these things. What I don't really get is trying to make a knife older or more used. It doesn't look as good as a fresh satin or mirror finish to me. Whatever time or effort I have for one of my knives sure isn't going in to falsely aging it.

I for sure understand it's not my business what anyone does to their equipment but I think for someone to expect me to think their freshly patina ed brand new GEC looks cool is asking a bit much. No offense meant.

Joe
 
So to answer the original topic question - I think it is not inborn, but is cultural. When I first started posting here in the Traditionals forum a little less than 5 years ago, the dominant forum culture seemed heavily oriented towards carbon steels, and patinas were highly revered. The responses to this thread are actually surprising, in that so many people now prefer stainless steel.

So that makes me think it must be a cultural thing, meaning the collective behaviors of a group, and that those cultural attitudes can shift over time based on the makeup of the group.
 
I picked up the knife habit on my own. No one in my family was a "knife guy" so all I knew about knives came from trial and error and my own personal preferences. When I saw patinas it simply looked like dirt and neglect to me. As I got older I learned that patinas were an attribute of carbon
steel. Since I didn't like the way it looked I only purchased ss knives. I learned only a few years ago that some actually prefer that look. Maybe if my dad or grandfather had carried and used a black-bladed knife when I was a kid I'd have a nostalgic feeling towards them, but I don't.
 
I always thought that people were trying to appear more experienced by owning used up looking tools. Kinda along the lines of the stolen valor concept. I'm glad it's reverence for and misunderstanding of earlier times.

My father and uncles all farm boys wouldn't carry anything but stainless on a bet. Generally victorinox knives actually. I was always taught to use the best tool I could afford. For me that is usually a Case knife with a Victorinox Tinker backup. I was also taught to polish the tarnish off lest it turn to rust.
 
I think there definitely are some who feel using new tools is somehow wrong. When I was in high school I saw my friend's dad "antique" a brand-new hammer that he just bought. He threw it against a cement wall a few times, rubbed it along the cement, and hit things with it sideways. This guy was beating the crap out of his new hammer. When he finished I asked my friend why his dad did that. He told me guys get laughed at around the job-site if they have shiny new tools. I don't know how common that attitude is but I saw it first-hand. That was one of the most idiotic things I've ever seen.
 
knarfeng said:
Patina carries no special appeal to me. My first knife, which I adopted sometime around the age of 6-8 was a carbon steel bladed knife which was older than I by quite a good deal.
But my second knife, given to me on my 12th birthday in 1964, was a little Schrade stockman with stainless blades. I never looked back.

One of my specialties at work is corrosion and its prevention in aircraft.
To me, patina is just another form of rust. Something to be avoided.

If some folks like it, it's fine by me as long as they don't blindly assume that everyone has to love it.
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So with your backgroud what is your take on the idea that a patina on the surface will protect the blade from rust?

Any truth in that or is it a campfire tale?
 
"The responses to this thread are actually surprising, in that so many people now prefer stainless steel."

I don't like the look of forced patinas and I try to keep my knives well maintained but I don't carry and use stainless steels.I have some of my favorite knives in stainless and will use them at the beach for instance. I do prefer carbon and alloy tool and HS steels along with good grained wood. ....And bolsters. :)

joe
 
Eric H said:
Yes, I'll start a new thread once it arrives.

Until then, one of my patina'd silver dollar rings (forced) and my Robeson Shureedge EO jack (natural):

mtA2Mz.jpg
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Never seen a ring made out of coin before, I want one!

Fine overall patina on that old knife, but the thing I've found is that in order for patina to be really appealing it has to be maintained i.e. it has to carried constantly everyday. Without this, dull lacklustre colour sets in, and worse rust spots appear (patina's real face:D:eek:)

Silver gets a black golden patina too, maybe we should just go back to those Sterling Silver fruit knives of yore :D

Thanks, Will
 
Nobody of us has seen actual steel ever. Patina happens instantly as oxygen comes in contact with iron.
That applies to stainless as well, where Cr oxyde developes immediately after a new scratch happens.
This layer can be thin, as thin as it looks almost transparent and you might believe to actually look at silver carbon steel.
Now, oxyde compounds can be air-tight and protective as the Cr oxyde, or moisture bearing and flaky like red rust is. In between you have black iron oxyde, less protective than Cr oxyde, but not flaky and quite stable. It gives colors from light grey to deep black depending on its thickness, and if the coverage is complete it gives protection from oxydation to the metal underneath. It doesn't readily develope in sufficient thickness/tightness as Cr oxyde, that's why if you scratch it (or sharpen) the new surfaces are at risk, but for the bulk of your blade it helps a lot with keeping rust at bay. Oh, yes, and then there is that Wabi-Sabi look that's just amazing ;)
 
Stelth said:
I think there definitely are some who feel using new tools is somehow wrong. When I was in high school I saw my friend's dad "antique" a brand-new hammer that he just bought. He threw it against a cement wall a few times, rubbed it along the cement, and hit things with it sideways. This guy was beating the crap out of his new hammer. When he finished I asked my friend why his dad did that. He told me guys get laughed at around the job-site if they have shiny new tools. I don't know how common that attitude is but I saw it first-hand. That was one of the most idiotic things I've ever seen.
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This is 100% true. My roomate works construction in highrise and told me if you show up with new tools and boots you won't get the job. Other workers will step on your boots.

He had to change sites one time and his pouch got left at another site. He came to the new site with a new pouch and the foreman stopped him before he went onsite and said "No, no, no, take my extra pouch and leave that new one in the truck"
 
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