Is the Xiphos or Roman Legion Sword the Ultimate All-Around Combat Blade?

[Timo Nieminen]

Regarding the Xiphos, it looks quite short and heavy for what it is. There are longswords that exist in that weight range. Another nitpick is that it lacks a guard. However, it does seem to be a very well made and sturdy sword.

600-700g, 45-60cm blade. Similar weight and size to Roman infantry swords. (Even similar weight and size when compared to some recent short swords, e.g., the Moro kris.)

Most modern replicas are very overweight - don't judge the historical sword from them. (They usually have a guard, too. Not a very long guard, but still a guard.)

 

[cchu518]

I wonder why cs sells the smatchet for 40 bucks but the butterfly sword virtually same material but polished up for 300 bucks?

 

[BitingSarcasm]

I wonder why cs sells the smatchet for 40 bucks but the butterfly sword virtually same material but polished up for 300 bucks?

One word: fanboys. Wing Chun students only have 2 weapon options for the most part: butterfly swords and dragon pole. And it is a bloody pain to tote around an 8 or 9 foot pole, much less practice with one given the sheer amount of space required. Plus, blades are just plain sexier, or we would be posting in Stickforums and not Bladeforums....For a lot of years, you had to go the custom route, which is insanely expensive when you consider that it is twofer, or buy a mystery product out of Asia based upon a hand-drawn illustration in a magazine. Polish up some basic steel, give it that stupid half-profile handle so you can put both blades in one sheath, and add a knucklebow that might not collapse or shatter if you actually hit something, and the WS students are gonna bite. When I had no money for such things, my plan was to get 2 Windlass D-guard bowies and cut the blades to my wants. At least then I would have 2 full-size grips in my hands.

 

[Timo Nieminen]

The smatchet machete being a piece of sheet metal with a molded plastic handle, and the CS butterfly sword being built like a sword, with distal taper, wedge-section blade, wooden grip core, rayskin, and wrap, and ferrules and a guard, might have something to do with the price difference, too. The butterflies are about the same price as the other cheap CS Chinese swords which don't attract WC fanboys, and while short, you get two of them.

The TFW (Traditional Filipino Weapons) butterfly swords are IMO better, but usually more expensive. The older style, with a longer, tapering pointier profile than the more recent non-tapered style. The Windlass bowie works as a substitute. Why cut the blades? Length and blade profile are historical enough (though not a common profile); the grip shape isn't historical (I've only seen oval or D-section barrel shaped grips on them).

 

[J W Bensinger]

The smatchet machete being a piece of sheet metal with a molded plastic handle, and the CS butterfly sword being built like a sword, with distal taper, wedge-section blade, wooden grip core, rayskin, and wrap, and ferrules and a guard, might have something to do with the price difference, too. The butterflies are about the same price as the other cheap CS Chinese swords which don't attract WC fanboys, and while short, you get two of them.

The TFW (Traditional Filipino Weapons) butterfly swords are IMO better, but usually more expensive. The older style, with a longer, tapering pointier profile than the more recent non-tapered style. The Windlass bowie works as a substitute. Why cut the blades? Length and blade profile are historical enough (though not a common profile); the grip shape isn't historical (I've only seen oval or D-section barrel shaped grips on them).

The variant on the hudie dao that I wish somebody (other than me lol) would make is the non-knucklebow, river pirate variant:
I tried a couple times to snag an original and finally made one because they were all out of my financial league at the time.

 

[BitingSarcasm]

Butterfly Profiles are all over the place. You look at historical pieces, mostly in old pictures and drawings, and there is not a whole lot of uniformity except in being single-edged and fairly short. Pardon if this is rehashing old stuff, but butterfly swords the way I picked it up spend time reversed with flat of the blade laying into forearm with the edge out. Very good defensively, and there is no closer range weapon unless you start using your teeth. Wing Chun forms and postures mostly have elbows down, forearms in line with the body to use the whole structure to project and receive energy. A blade held in reverse hand that sticks far out past your elbow is going to end up in your ribs at some point (heh). CS took a common design, added a fancy cord on the handle, and a bunch of extra weight. But if we are going that route, please give me an ounce or two of wood in the handle and put an actual grip on each one of them.

Oh, and I can totally see a river pirate swarming up the lee side of a junk with that in clenched in his fist, nice work J W!

 

[Timo Nieminen]

The variant on the hudie dao that I wish somebody (other than me lol) would make is the non-knucklebow, river pirate variant:
I tried a couple times to snag an original and finally made one because they were all out of my financial league at the time.

Good-looking replica of a Chinese bowie. Here are my matched pair:

(I have a single one as well, with oval-section grip so probably not part of a pair, but don't have a photo of it at hand.)

 

[J W Bensinger]

Good-looking replica of a Chinese bowie. Here are my matched pair:

(I have a single one as well, with oval-section grip so probably not part of a pair, but don't have a photo of it at hand.)

I want an original in the worst way- those are very nice. I much prefer the singles.

 

[Timo Nieminen]

A blade held in reverse hand that sticks far out past your elbow is going to end up in your ribs at some point (heh). CS took a common design, added a fancy cord on the handle, and a bunch of extra weight. But if we are going that route, please give me an ounce or two of wood in the handle and put an actual grip on each one of them.

Haven't seen an old photo (or art) showing them being held in reverse grip, so this probably wasn't an issue for most users in the 19th century. 16" is a pretty common blade length, which will go past most elbows.

1.5-2lb seems pretty normal for modern-made short wide-bladed hudiedao, and the CS one is fairly long (15"). CS gives 32oz for the weight, Kult of Athena gives 26oz. I saw one antique with a 17" blade which was a little over 2lb. Don't know if CS had any real input into the design, or whether they just got whatever Huanuo (who makes CS's Chinese swords) was making at the time (I don't see a hudiedao on Huanuo's website, so can't compare models).

 

[Timo Nieminen]

I want an original in the worst way- those are very nice. I much prefer the singles.

Here's the single:

It's about the same weight as the twins put together (378g vs 187g and 182g). The blade is thicker (5.4mm at the base vs 4mm), but a lot of that extra weight is in the guard and pommel.

All together in a group shot:

I like them. I'd have more except they tend to be rather expensive (last few I saw that sold on ebay went for about US$200 and US$300, iirc). These were much cheaper, but they have condition issues (pitting on the twins, and hammering on the spine of the single).

 

[J W Bensinger]

Here's the single:

It's about the same weight as the twins put together (378g vs 187g and 182g). The blade is thicker (5.4mm at the base vs 4mm), but a lot of that extra weight is in the guard and pommel.

All together in a group shot:

O
I like them. I'd have more except they tend to be rather expensive (last few I saw that sold on ebay went for about US$200 and US$300, iirc). These were much cheaper, but they have condition issues (pitting on the twins, and hammering on the spine of the single).

Arrgh
Links don't work
The auction that got me going on them went to $180...for five of them (in varying conditions)...at the time I just didn't have two benjamins to throw at fun...

 

[Timo Nieminen]

My fault. Links fixed now (I think).

 

[Bigfattyt]

Glad I scanned for Smachet before I said Smachet..

But really it's like asking what the best bread, or pizza, or Chinese food is.

I have a heavy beater bastard sword. Too unwieldy for house work (and too beefy really to be much use). Very ungainly, as it is too heavy. (A properly weighted and balanced sword is a different strory). I have battle axes, spike axes, pole axe, fighting hawks, and khukris.

I'd probably grab my khukris and a fighting hawk. I'd I had pants with a belt, there would be two extras in the belt.

I'm a gun guy also, so there is that.

Op, don't discount axes. They can have reach, thrusting, hooking, smashing, slashing, throwing and blocking, and yu can choke up under the head and shorten the reach to grappling/punching range. Handy for throwing too, if you have back ups.

 

[Ed E]

I'm embarrassed to say that I keep one of these by my bedroom door as a defense of last resort. In close quarters like a hallway I feel that I could successfully wield it.

nothing to be embarrassed about.. All through history, Sword Styles have changed in order to be effective in the conditions prevalent at the time.

My latest sword is an attempt at replicating the "short, tactical sword" (in this case, two handed) for possible home defense while giving some homage to tradition. It is also quite good for practicing Chinese Sword techniques indoors...

 

[David Stifle]

Perhaps the best combat sword made just might be the Beta-Ti swords Sam (Mecha on the forum) is making. Yet to be determined, but damn! They are light, super strong, flexible, non-corrosive, and retain a keen edge like you wouldn't believe.

 

[Mecha]

Perhaps the best combat sword made just might be the Beta-Ti swords Sam (Mecha on the forum) is making. Yet to be determined, but damn! They are light, super strong, flexible, non-corrosive, and retain a keen edge like you wouldn't believe.

Awww thanks Dave! I suppose that just like other swords through history, they might be the best in certain conditions. In this case, being in the post-modern age, I like them to be medium or smallish in size yet have big power, while very quick and accurate in action. By the end of this upcoming summer I want some big ones of these in the hands of ARMA and SCA type folks. Forged Grade 23 targe and beta ti saber, anyone?

 

[mickb]

Lack of a decent guard on the gladuis and many xiphos is a pretty big fail for an all round sword. Didn't bother them in battle since they were usually used with a shield. But as you find out in 1-1 fencing without sheild, a sword without a decent guard/cross is a liability with all the different ways to hit the opponents hands in sparring. This is also why sabre guys can land these strikes on kendo guys who also don't have much of a guard to speak of. Not that you would expect zorro to be burglarising your house at night, but worst case an assailant has another longer blade the xiphos and gladius( and most machettes/bush swords) are not the best 1-1 fencing tools.

My vote is for a cutlass. 22-24".Still short enough for close quarters which they were proven in, yet long enough you can outreach most the machettes, ancient weapons and things an modern assailant might be coming at you with, good for thrust and chop, slightly curved for slicing with enough tip velocity thanks to the length of blade to cause severe wounds. They can fence against longer weapons- in fact their techniques are derived from classical sabre with some of the leg attacks usually removed as they are a bit short for it. Decent handguards as used in an era of largely unarmored fighting and no shields.Also unlike medieval sword arts which we are still working to put together and don't have any direct links to their use, sabre/cutlass is more recent and there is still old footage of their training and sparring. So if you learn to use one you have reasonable confidence you have a style and weapon that can take on attackers from a range of historical periods, machette wielding burglars or zombies as required

A lot of generalisations above of course, just my basic opinion

 

[gadunz]

Celts; better weapons, worse tactics? (Except for the Caledonians).

And the Darksword Armory version

"As with all our swords, The Anthropomorphic Celtic sword is hand forged from 5160 High Carbon Steel and Dual hardened to a Rockwell of 60 at the edge and 48-50 at the core."
Other companies have 24" blades.
http://casiberia.com/product/celtic-anthropomorphic-sword/ip-084

 

[Liam Ryan]

Screw the smatchet, does anyone remember J. Lightning and the "RAZR"?
http://www.razrknife.com/Specifications.html

"Heat treated 3 times"

And the original bladeforums post, comedy gold.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/533609-Anyone-heard-of-this-guy

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Bwahaha. I missed that one the first time round. Good stuff. Although, Will Stowe was pretty entertaining as well.