Khukuri or KLO?

[shortwinger]

Jay,

N2S is correct, every one of the so-called imperfections in the traditional kukri improve chopping. The hollow forging, the hammer indentations the not-so-straight blades all provide pockets where the material (wood) is not contacting anything. This reduces friction and allows the blade to move further into the wood.

We have to remember that for an ax or a hatchet or a kukri, the job of the edge is to break into the wood, where as the bevel's job is to bust the material apart and move it away from the edge so it can sink deeper. If the edge and bevel do not work "with" each other then all you have is a bent leaf spring with a filed edge or, as I like to call it a metal brick. This is at the heart of my problem with making models on a whim and making things up as you go along. That is fine if you are a one-off knife artist but when you are looking for a heavy chopper or a martial arts weapon or a camping kukri you should know what to expect. The models have the features and specs that they do for a very good reason, they work! They work for people who work with them daily so, many many many refinements have been made to the design of the years, not for looks or because it sells but, because it works better.

I hate using the KLO term because it stinks of elitism and superiority but I can say from a lot of personal use that few modern made traditional kukri can hang in there with some of the better made so-called KLO's. The handles, edges and sheaths of most of the traditional kukri are destroyed before you scratch the blade of a modern kukri. This may sound as though I like the modern machine made kukri more than the traditional models but nothing could be further from the truth. I love and cherish my real traditional Nepalese and Indian kukri but, good ones are few and far between. Modern authentic ones "made to specs" are virtually impossible to find at any price.

So I agree with n2s that the lines that define the term KLO can very definitely be blurred and hard to follow. It isn't necessary to talk down the modern kukri to make the traditional kukri special. They are both special to me. Some are better users and some are just for lookin...

 

[JayGoliath]

Well said Bill.

I'm very happy that N2S pointed out something we overlooked. Speaking of which Bill, if we re-handled an old khuk accordingly (modern material, say micarta) to the exact weight, could we have alter the balance of strike and flow it was intended?

 

[arbiter]

I am kind of new in the Khukuri World. But I have found out that verbal fights have occurred over this very "line". In other words, what is a real Khukuri? Everyone has an opinion on it. What I have done is view past pictures of Khukuris, read various books on the topic, and listen to folks who study this area. What I found is important and useful to me. But everyone must find their own answer to the question.
View attachment 280505

I agree that ultimately, everyone has to define the answer to this question for themselves.This post was not placed to generate any hard feelings or arguments,but rather to open a healthy,adult discussion amongst enthusiasts. I have found that those inclined to attack others because of a differing viewpoint often lack spiritual maturity and aren't generally worthy of inclusion in even the simplest airing of views. This forum,I would hope is an exception,and I appreciate the feedback as it expands the knowledge base of all who participate.

 

[jdk1]

Very well said Bill. My HI M43 and ASTK are well designed to chop wood. They don't get stuck and they throw wood chips. I believe this is just as Bill said, due to the edge digging in and the hollow forge and dimpled surface giving the wood nothing to grab. The wood chips ends up being blown out. My CS Gurkha does not share this performance in chopping, but can lop off limbs and cut grass like a light saber. Its flat grind is not perfect for removing material, but excels at cutting through material. The CS Gurkha in San Mai III is not flat ground, but convex, if I understand correctly. Maybe someone with experience with this model could let us know how it chops. Performance aside, traditional khukuri will always have a special feel and meaning. Take care.

 

[shortwinger]

Jay, I think a micarta handle on an old MkII would be fantastic! (dare I say a kydex sheath??? shhhhh) I have often though about doing it but don't have to heart to destroy an old war horse. Too bad there were not a source of old WWI and WWII blades with no handles that you wouldn't mind bringing back to life.

John, you highlight one of my worries about the MkII design with its flat blade and small bevel. The MkII is much like the CS kukri in shape and design although the MkII has a bit more weight in the belly, but the bevel and thin flat blade are very similar. I wonder if a real MkII will be on par with the CS in the chopping department? I don't give the CS as bad a grade as you in the chopping department except that as I have said several times in certain kinds of wood, especially live wet types, the CS can be a bit sticky. But a small can of WD-40 has solved this issue from my perspective.

Arbiter, this isn't arguing! This is just how we discuss things here on the kukri forum. Your question was a very good one and one that I think about each time I hear some use the term KLO in a negative manner. Good for you for bringing it up!

 

[peak]

This is all personal preference. A Quick comparison between CS gurkha and HI dui chirra. The CS kraton handle are more secure and comfortable for me, and have better grip especially when wet. The lanyard hole on the CS are a big plus for big knife. The CS kukri are very fast in hand due to the lighter weight and balance, it's a perfect slicer and stabber. HI handle are too slippery for me especially when wet and the ergonomic are off, I have small to medium hand. HI forward balance blade, heavier and convex
grind make it a better chopper. A good glove will help a lot with handle problem. They are both indestructible due to the thickness of the blade, the only place I think it might fail will be by the tang area. CS have hidden full tang as well as the HI full rat tail tang. The sheath is were there is a clear winner for me, the CS kukri come with the Secure-Ex Sheath which hold the kukri in place securely and protect from environment. The sheath for HI kukri are utterly useless, not being able to hold the blade in place nor water resistant, and there are no place to secure a string on the handle to the sheath to keep the blade secure . As a temporary solution I tie between the belt loop and the handle. For the price I think CS gurkha KLO are a better buy, but like everybody else eventually you will end up with a kukri from nepal.

If you do, make sure you get the handle width full tang not the full rat tail version, it's my mistake for not reading through
the HI company profile. Most of their kukri are rat tail even if it is call full tang, you have to get the chiruwa version. Although the full tang do transfer a little more shock from chopping, taken into account the durability and rust through capability, the full tang will just simply out last the rat tail. Moisture slip into the crack wood and horn handle fairly easily, when that happen they basically just rot in there. Replacing the handle on the full tang are easier to deal with than the rat tail version. Good luck shopping.

 

[jdk1]

I wouldn't say I give the CS Gurkha a bad grade Bill, because it does chop very, very well, but not as well as my aforementioned HI khukuri. The CS Gurkha bites extremely deep, it just doesn't seperate chunks from the log as well. It's also a half pound or so lighter than those HI khuks. Also, I love the handles on several of my HI khuks, namely my WWII (both WWIIs) and ASTK. They fit my hand perfectly. The CS handle is a bit small. It's not as noticable while clearing brush, but I feel the difference when chopping hard wood. I actually did a paracord wrap on the handle of my CS Gurkha and it was a great improvement.

As for the Mk. II, I also wonder how it would perform. My issue pieces are not hollow forged, but do have the hammer marks/dimples of a hand forged blade. My private purchase Mk. IIs, including the M43 and aircrew, have a slight hollow forge. I wish I could bring myself to use one, but even the homliest one rests on a stand

Peak, the CS tang is pretty much full length, the lanyard hole is actually through the tang, but it's covered by rubber. That's an interesting point on tang rust. I don't really live in a high humidity area, so I've never really worried about that. I just like a chiruwa tang because it seems it would be easy to make field expedient repairs without tools or skill

Something we must keep in mind during this discussion is the difference between a khukuri machete and a khukuri. Most companies seem to make the machete type, while CS makes both. I haven't handled the CS machete, but have to believe the Gurkha is a different animal. My CS LTC is different than the Gurkha, though it performs exceedingly well for a 1/8" thick blade. Take care.

 

[Duzzy]

I do no think it is accurate to say that khukuris job is to simply cut wood. I see the design as a multi-purpose cutting tool. People don't fear the Gurkhas and their blades because of they can make a fire faster than everyone else.

My Gelbu Special has fullers, the Sword of Shiva, a Cho, the Dogleg blade shape, etc. It has more of the "features" of a khukuri than an M-43 in that regard (which usually seem to come sans fullers) but I would not say that it is primarily designed to bust apart wood.

 

[Howard Wallace]

This discussion reminds me of "no true Scottsman."

A simple rendition would be:

Alice: All Scotsmen enjoy haggis.
Bob: My uncle is a Scotsman, and he doesn't like haggis!
Alice: Well, all true Scotsmen like haggis.

Not to be confused with "True Scottsman," which is about a different matter altogether.

My guess is that a Nepalese gent struggling through the jungles and grasslands of the Terai would be more than happy to have a lightweight khukuri machete to clear vines and grasses.

The Nepalese traditions have become entwined with the distinctively curved knive called the khukuri, as the American tradition is involved with the bowie knife, and the Scottish tradition the dirk. Each culture adopted and refined a particular distinctive bladeform, and has served as an inspiration to others concering the potential utilities of those forms.

The forms are out there, floating in the universe, for play, experimentation and modification for those who are facinated by knives. Voices arise saying the westerners can't make this knife, or the kamis can't make that knife. There appear to be fears that some sacred cultural boundary or holy turf is being violated.

In today's world or free-flowing information those illusory boundaries evaporate even more quickly than they did in the past, and they were never firm.

 

[Duzzy]

Now is a Scotsman considered an Englishman? Or simply and "Englishman Like Object"?

 

[sweetcostarica]

I agree that ultimately, everyone has to define the answer to this question for themselves.This post was not placed to generate any hard feelings or arguments,but rather to open a healthy,adult discussion amongst enthusiasts. I have found that those inclined to attack others because of a differing viewpoint often lack spiritual maturity and aren't generally worthy of inclusion in even the simplest airing of views. This forum,I would hope is an exception,and I appreciate the feedback as it expands the knowledge base of all who participate.

I think it is a good question you asked, don't get me wrong. It just brings out the passion in people because of the greatness of the Khukuri.
When you ask Khukuri or KLO? Bang opposing views automatically are introduced. This is what happened to me when I first started buying and writing about the Kukri. The way I have always done things is as mentioned: check historical media, find out what books say, and listen to people that are considered knowledgeable in the topic. I only know of three people considered experts in this area.

I really appreciate your question arbiter and the spirit in which you asked it. Here is my personal view as of May 30th, 2012 on "what is a real Khukuri" for me and from all of my studies:
A real Khukuri is from Nepal and is a handmade cutting tool for farmers and the Nepalese Army. It's design is changeable for the needs of the individual. It is a multifunctional tool which traditionally had a hidden tang, inwardly curved blade, and kauda (cho). Traditionally the Kami and Biswakarma make this big knife and it is an inherited art.

OK, that is the textbook answer. You can also find real knives actually used by the Nepali Royalty, framers, soldiers in all the wars. Using these originals gives us accurate specifications.

The problem we have is again this is such a great design you have companies in Nepal and all over the world making Khukuris too. Kukris are a good business item and even the Nepalese Army will buy your product if it is good enough for their heavy use.

So you have this situation: Some companies follow as strictly as possible to original specifications of the traditional Khukuri and other companies do not, not even close. Also, many other Kukri makers are in the middle somewhere.

I call this area the "Passion of the Kkukuri" because everybody has their favorite maker and model. Which in turn starts getting you into heated debate on different aspects of design and use. If kept in check this is healthy and everyone benefits from each other. But as you stated there are some who "lack spiritual maturity"to accept another's viewpoint.

In the end it is really the individuals personal opinion of his/her Kukri that matters. If he or she likes it or not. So answering the question Khukuri or KLO? should be just an intellectual exercise and not a reason to go to war. I believe this is the spirit of arbiter's question.


I find it an ironic fact that the most used blade in Nepal today is not the Khukuri but the sickle (called the Hasiya).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3FkROO_hIY
Above is a link to the Nepali sickle.

 

[sweetcostarica]

Now is a Scotsman considered an Englishman? Or simply and "Englishman Like Object"?

Very cute Duzzy:thumbup:. Although this fellow Wallace would disagree with both uses.

 

[JayGoliath]

An interesting picture from Jim March:

For Bill, John and N2S.(On 2nd note the modification looks like the one from M4040 website)

For arbiter:

And perhaps a good read of it again:
http://www.ikrhs.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4449&sid=13128a2a309a2c6fe3fa5e8570644bc0

 

[arbiter]

Jay, I think a micarta handle on an old MkII would be fantastic! (dare I say a kydex sheath??? shhhhh) I have often though about doing it but don't have to heart to destroy an old war horse. Too bad there were not a source of old WWI and WWII blades with no handles that you wouldn't mind bringing back to life.

John, you highlight one of my worries about the MkII design with its flat blade and small bevel. The MkII is much like the CS kukri in shape and design although the MkII has a bit more weight in the belly, but the bevel and thin flat blade are very similar. I wonder if a real MkII will be on par with the CS in the chopping department? I don't give the CS as bad a grade as you in the chopping department except that as I have said several times in certain kinds of wood, especially live wet types, the CS can be a bit sticky. But a small can of WD-40 has solved this issue from my perspective.

Arbiter, this isn't arguing! This is just how we discuss things here on the kukri forum. Your question was a very good one and one that I think about each time I hear some use the term KLO in a negative manner. Good for you for bringing it up!

Just as a note of clarification Bill-I wasn't accusing anyone of arguing in this exchange-my statement was one of generalities and some of the unpleasantness that can surface during forum discussions. In fact, this thread is very interesting and has been well conducted by all involved.

 

[arbiter]

I think it is a good question you asked, don't get me wrong. It just brings out the passion in people because of the greatness of the Khukuri.
When you ask Khukuri or KLO? Bang opposing views automatically are introduced. This is what happened to me when I first started buying and writing about the Kukri. The way I have always done things is as mentioned: check historical media, find out what books say, and listen to people that are considered knowledgeable in the topic. I only know of three people considered experts in this area.

I really appreciate your question arbiter and the spirit in which you asked it. Here is my personal view as of May 30th, 2012 on "what is a real Khukuri" for me and from all of my studies:
A real Khukuri is from Nepal and is a handmade cutting tool for farmers and the Nepalese Army. It's design is changeable for the needs of the individual. It is a multifunctional tool which traditionally had a hidden tang, inwardly curved blade, and kauda (cho). Traditionally the Kami and Biswakarma make this big knife and it is an inherited art.

OK, that is the textbook answer. You can also find real knives actually used by the Nepali Royalty, framers, soldiers in all the wars. Using these originals gives us accurate specifications.

The problem we have is again this is such a great design you have companies in Nepal and all over the world making Khukuris too. Kukris are a good business item and even the Nepalese Army will buy your product if it is good enough for their heavy use.

So you have this situation: Some companies follow as strictly as possible to original specifications of the traditional Khukuri and other companies do not, not even close. Also, many other Kukri makers are in the middle somewhere.

I call this area the "Passion of the Kkukuri" because everybody has their favorite maker and model. Which in turn starts getting you into heated debate on different aspects of design and use. If kept in check this is healthy and everyone benefits from each other. But as you stated there are some who "lack spiritual maturity"to accept another's viewpoint.

In the end it is really the individuals personal opinion of his/her Kukri that matters. If he or she likes it or not. So answering the question Khukuri or KLO? should be just an intellectual exercise and not a reason to go to war. I believe this is the spirit of arbiter's question.

View attachment 280652
I find it an ironic fact that the most used blade in Nepal today is not the Khukuri but the sickle (called the Hasiya).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3FkROO_hIY
Above is a link to the Nepali sickle.

Sweetcostarica-Exactly right. I guess I view the khukuri something like a tree-starting with the roots,and then branching upward and outward,taking different forms in the quest to perfect it for different applications. As for what separates the khukuri from the KLO-I say made in Nepal,by Kamis are 2 inviolate absolutes.I do understand that discussions can become heated on subjects such as this(this has not been the case in this thread..)but if we can keep it civil,we all benefit from the sharing of experience and knowledge as it has been written, "iron sharpens iron".

 

[jdk1]

Sweetcostarica-Exactly right. I guess I view the khukuri something like a tree-starting with the roots,and then branching upward and outward,taking different forms in the quest to perfect it for different applications. As for what separates the khukuri from the KLO-I say made in Nepal,by Kamis are 2 inviolate absolutes.I do understand that discussions can become heated on subjects such as this(this has not been the case in this thread..)but if we can keep it civil,we all benefit from the sharing of experience and knowledge as it has been written, "iron sharpens iron".

To further muddy the waters and play the devil's advocate:devilish:, I will add that I have two WWII British Gurkha issued Mk. II khukuri setting behind me marked "Pioneer Calcutta 1943" Calcutta isn't in Nepal, but the kamis creating them could have been from Nepal. At some point our little khukuri congress may make a final determination, only to discover no one else cares Well, I have enjoyed this thread and find the opinions interesting. Take care.

 

[sweetcostarica]

You're a good man arbiter.

I will add that I have two WWII British Gurkha issued Mk. II khukuri setting behind me marked "Pioneer Calcutta 1943" Calcutta isn't in Nepal...

Good question jdk1. I didn't think of that.

Maybe that's an exception to the rule because of war .

 

[Dirtbiker]

I'm my amature opinion a "real" kukri should be hand forged, differentially hardened 5160 steel, and retain the traditional kukri shape. Beyond that anything goes. I have a couple modern kukris and I can tell you they are serious blades.

 

[JayGoliath]

To further muddy the waters and play the devil's advocate:devilish:, I will add that I have two WWII British Gurkha issued Mk. II khukuri setting behind me marked "Pioneer Calcutta 1943" Calcutta isn't in Nepal, but the kamis creating them could have been from Nepal.

Maybe that's an exception to the rule because of war.

John and SCR,
Remember the Chin knife from Cossipore, India?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/883565-Battle-Khukuri?

There has been many KLO in the past-(2nd and 4th from the top)
According to John Powell, the 4th one from the top, sans kaudi and ring was an excellent reproduction of a rare Indian kukri. This knife was pictured in Flook's excellent book of British Military Knives.

 

[sweetcostarica]

Dirtbiker and JayGoliath. I want to add as you and others have observed personally that real Khukuris, semi-real Khukuris, and Khukuri Like Objects (KLO's) can chop. Don't let anyone tell you KLO's can not chop. I would never say that because there are many really great ones out there.

By the way Jay your 8:00 am post above has some incredibly nice blades. Wonderfully artistic and yet so functional :thumbup:


The military patterns that were made in Nepal and outside Nepal. The Chin knife from Cossipore, India. All are Khukuris yet made elsewhere. I am blindsided, I didn't think of those. So is this an exception to the rule or an inclusion? Another fun and interesting dilemma.