knifetests.com - destruction test of a HI khuk....
- Thread starter new
- Start date
noss4 aint no Cliff Stamp, but I still think his results and work is interesting to watch, although it's a largely uncontrolled test of pure durability and doesnt take into account many practical uses. Cliff had it as close to a science as he could get it. I like to see this stuff as a benchmark of toughness to compare to other blades, if only in vague terms. I think this forum has suffered from a sort of kung-fu mysticism. The forumites are so keen to protect yangdu, HI, and the near mystical reputation of the blades they've kind of distanced themselves from comparison with others and it's become tarnished. The old HI forum would go back 3-4 pages of new threads a day. Now it's slowed down to a drip. The old no-nonsense lifetime warranty- it breaks, we fix it- simple as that. I think uncle Bill would not have minded this test. He was never the one who shied away from putting his khuks through hard or destructive use, I remember he used to throw these things, stick them between two sturdy boards and stomp on them, etc. He never dwelled on any nostalgic sense of pride or magic or human like-dignity in the knives. Hyperbole and in joking ways, yes but in practice never. At the end of the day, they were just tools. I think some of you have forgotten that.
Hi All,
This discussion reminds me of the old arguments about book burnings. Mercedes Lackey, who was targeted for a book burning because she wrote about a homosexual protagonist, put a note in the front of her books, to the effect that she welcomed book burnings, and that mass sales were available for anyone that wanted large quantities to burn. Oddly enough, she hasn't been targeted for book burnings recently.
In a similar vein, I have no problem with someone giving good money to HI to destroy a khukuri. After all, Yangdu needs the business. I'd even suggest repeat tests, to see how the tools made by different kamis fare.
As for Shaman's question about how HI products stand up to a Cold Steel machete (#56 or so back there), I'll admit that I'm thinking about buying a couple of CS machetes for work. Why? Well, I've now used machetes and a HI sirupati to clear brush, and I can say the following: HI cuts better, especially on wood, and it holds its edge better (even the unhardened tip on the sirupati held an edge better than a CS machete). CS didn't make the best machete I own (which came from a garden store back in the 80s, and was made in Brazil).
Why buy a CS machete? I have a big patch of poison oak to clear, and CS machetes are cheap and have plastic handles. That makes it easier to clean the poison oak sap off one after I'm done. I'd hate to do that on my sirupati, especially with all those designs Bura cut into the blade. Even cheap factory stuff has some uses.
F
This discussion reminds me of the old arguments about book burnings. Mercedes Lackey, who was targeted for a book burning because she wrote about a homosexual protagonist, put a note in the front of her books, to the effect that she welcomed book burnings, and that mass sales were available for anyone that wanted large quantities to burn. Oddly enough, she hasn't been targeted for book burnings recently.
In a similar vein, I have no problem with someone giving good money to HI to destroy a khukuri. After all, Yangdu needs the business. I'd even suggest repeat tests, to see how the tools made by different kamis fare.
As for Shaman's question about how HI products stand up to a Cold Steel machete (#56 or so back there), I'll admit that I'm thinking about buying a couple of CS machetes for work. Why? Well, I've now used machetes and a HI sirupati to clear brush, and I can say the following: HI cuts better, especially on wood, and it holds its edge better (even the unhardened tip on the sirupati held an edge better than a CS machete). CS didn't make the best machete I own (which came from a garden store back in the 80s, and was made in Brazil).
Why buy a CS machete? I have a big patch of poison oak to clear, and CS machetes are cheap and have plastic handles. That makes it easier to clean the poison oak sap off one after I'm done. I'd hate to do that on my sirupati, especially with all those designs Bura cut into the blade. Even cheap factory stuff has some uses.
F
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2004
- Messages
- 407
Yep. Sometimes good enough is good enough.
For $15 you can even consider just throwing it away (poison oak and ivy oils can last weeks/months on goods). Even if the HI is 'better' than the CS, the CS test and comparison 'may' show that the CS is 'good enough' for some uses (like you described) that you would not want to put your (insert brand here) to.
I don't honestly think people considering an HI are going to say, "OH CRAP. I better save a ton of money and get the CS instead of the HI." Though, they might be impressed enough to buy one for when they are slumming.
Most people buying the CS won't jump up to an HI even if they pass Noss test with flying colors. They are different markets. And some people, like yourself may make use of both.
BUT, for those CS buyers.. I bet they feel pretty good right now.
Hi Shaman,
I'd sort of agree with you, but not really. First thing is, we've got to compare apples and apples. In this case, we've got to compare the sirupati and the Cold Steel Gurkha Kukri (the SK5 steel version, not their $650 san mai version). They're about the same size, but my sirupati was $25 cheaper. Not only that, the siru is sustainably made out of recycled steel and horn and leather that I'll bet are close to sustainably harvested (cows, in Nepal--not an American feedlot operation). I also helped pay a living wage to a Kami and got that wonderful guarantee from Yangdu. The CS products come with plastic sheaths, no karda or chakma, and I'd still have to get a left-handed sheath made for a CS kukri. We can compare the performance of the two, but I'd say the HI product's better. And if we compare, say, an 18" AK, it will blow away the comparable CS product, for a cheaper price.
You've got to look at the longer term effects. I don't know enough about Cold Steel to comment on their operations, except that I'm pretty sure their machetes are batch-made in an African factory. I know they care about their products too, but I think that more good comes out of buying an HI product. I'm a professional ecologist, and that's one thing I do. I don't just look at the price of the product, I also look at who's affected by my purchase and use of it. CS machetes have their place, but they're still throwaway products. That's not so good these days. If I wasn't contemplating a situation where cleanability and disposability matter, I wouldn't consider them.
Good to have the discussion though, and I'm glad you brought up that comparison.
F
I'd sort of agree with you, but not really. First thing is, we've got to compare apples and apples. In this case, we've got to compare the sirupati and the Cold Steel Gurkha Kukri (the SK5 steel version, not their $650 san mai version). They're about the same size, but my sirupati was $25 cheaper. Not only that, the siru is sustainably made out of recycled steel and horn and leather that I'll bet are close to sustainably harvested (cows, in Nepal--not an American feedlot operation). I also helped pay a living wage to a Kami and got that wonderful guarantee from Yangdu. The CS products come with plastic sheaths, no karda or chakma, and I'd still have to get a left-handed sheath made for a CS kukri. We can compare the performance of the two, but I'd say the HI product's better. And if we compare, say, an 18" AK, it will blow away the comparable CS product, for a cheaper price.
You've got to look at the longer term effects. I don't know enough about Cold Steel to comment on their operations, except that I'm pretty sure their machetes are batch-made in an African factory. I know they care about their products too, but I think that more good comes out of buying an HI product. I'm a professional ecologist, and that's one thing I do. I don't just look at the price of the product, I also look at who's affected by my purchase and use of it. CS machetes have their place, but they're still throwaway products. That's not so good these days. If I wasn't contemplating a situation where cleanability and disposability matter, I wouldn't consider them.
Good to have the discussion though, and I'm glad you brought up that comparison.
F
I think youre way off base with the mysticism comment. No forumite here, nor yangdu,i feel are distancing themselves from comparison to any other comparable blade on the market. The problem is that some of you feel that comparing a handmade in the traditional manner blade against blades made with the help of modern tech and heat treating is a fair and unbiased test.
Nevermind the fact that this test that is underway is hardly scientific,moreso i feel that it is an excuse to destroy a perfectly fine handmade khuk and gain some notoriety while doing so.After all any of us can chop steel pipe or put our khuks in a vise and bash them to death with a sledgehammer.I never knew uncle bill, but i'm pretty sure he would have winced at this type of test, but, being the sort of person he was, he would have sent Noss4 a khuk to kill just to show that he wouldnt shy away from being called out on any matter concerning his product wether his khuk "won" the test or not. WE havent forgotten that these khuks we're so avid on purchasing are just tools, in fact we depend on that fact and most of us agree that in the khukuri world these H.I "tools" are some of the finest "tools" to be coming out of nepal today, bar none.
EDIT: just read Fearns post above which give even more reason to purchase an H.I. Khukuri over anything else on the market.
Good points Fearn and thank you.
Last edited:
The only commentary I can add is that I can agree with Eric 425 on the point that the postings in this forum do appear to be dwindling. More lurkers less posters. We should each make an effort to revive this place.
As to destruction testing,it seems silly to me,but if you wanted to do it use a CAK. After all it's described as "makes a good substitute prybar".
YMMV
As to destruction testing,it seems silly to me,but if you wanted to do it use a CAK. After all it's described as "makes a good substitute prybar".
YMMV
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2004
- Messages
- 407
Crossing performance with manufacture.
That is what the test would reveal.
This is what happens though and why some people don't like the test. They have a belief about an item and all the emotions behind it lead them to dislike seeing a quality product abused and fail. And invariably they do fail since this is a Destruction Test.
I like using this example, CS vs HI, since they would rarely be cross shopped by the same crowd. But, Noss also did a test of a CTD Rough Use knife that did exceedingly well. So I guess people 'could' compare that against some of the combat crowd as well.
The "combat ready" knife comparisons though where the prices are similar and the design and intent are close could help people compare products they are actually cross shopping. Then for some of us who can not afford multi-hundred dollar blades, it is edu-tainment.
I think the old joking talk about the blades being alive, or magic, has been used to personify it into a weird sort of mysticism. Like kung fu, the idea of old masters who never fight, but are esteemed on tradition and history. A safety of reputation from distance. Yes, that test is not scientific, I've said that myself in the very first sentence. But at the end of the day, it's a cold piece of steel. It's not a call out. It's just a guy who hammers on knives for entertainment, and though it'll be vague and highly variant, it'll say a little about what the knife can take. If you never even knew the man how can you say you're pretty sure you know what he'd do? I've been here for 6 years, and during this forums heyday, this was the main subforum I frequented. I bought and dealt with uncle bill for several years. Bill advocated beating on the blades. He was well known for throwing the damn things around like you would a cheap throwing knife! Heck, on his chiruwa AK, he blatantly dared people to try to bend or break yours, and if you managed to succeed he'd send you two! Forumites trying to look out for old bill often advised him against it, because his outright confidence and incredible warranties left HI open to exploitation. He had the best warrantees in the business bar none. Who knows, maybe he was a wiser businessman than we all thought.. his seemingly outrageous service and backing might've drawn enough attention and customers to more than offset the costs of any occasional exploitation? Back then, this was by far the most popular and active manufacturers forum, with busse a distant second. One thing is for sure, he was never hesitant to beat on a blade, or to let anyone do so! They were handcrafted, forumites called them works of art, but he treated them as cold tools. When it came time to bring it and take artistry back to plain utility, there was never any hesitation on his part! They definately weren't his special precious babies and definately weren't treated that way. If you think so, you definately did not know the man.
I also like what Shaman said
I think putting those personal emotions behind a product and a name leads to bias, and the built up veil of mysticism I talked about. Well, I know it does. At the end of that day, it's just a knife we're interested in that can be put through something interesting and somewhat revealing, despite the lack of scientific controlled procedure. It is edu-tainment.
Last edited:
I never said that uncle bill treated his khuks as works of art or as "precious special babies", i know he didnt and he advocated rough ,hard ,honest USE. i also know that if you treated your blade to a sledghammering or such measure to blatantly break it, you would eat the cost for your foolishness,hence the change in warranty policy.
I still dont know where you get this kung-fu mysticism idea.I myself hold no such idealism to any of my blades, with the exception of my salyan, which i reserve for self defense, all my khuks are "users". i therefore suggest that this idea is something you yourself percieve.
I could care less about how others treat their blade or how they "test" them, but the fact remains that this "test" will serve nothing other than to destroy a good working knife under the guise of being a "test" an entirely self serving and different matter altogether.
Youre right i dislike this test....but not because of any mysticism ,percieved dishonor or anything else other that it being a waste of time, effort and a khukuri.
I also find it in poor form for forumites who had the honor to get to know uncle bill, to hold it over the head of those who werent as fortunate, As for exactly what he would have done in this situation we will never know.
I still dont know where you get this kung-fu mysticism idea.I myself hold no such idealism to any of my blades, with the exception of my salyan, which i reserve for self defense, all my khuks are "users". i therefore suggest that this idea is something you yourself percieve.
I could care less about how others treat their blade or how they "test" them, but the fact remains that this "test" will serve nothing other than to destroy a good working knife under the guise of being a "test" an entirely self serving and different matter altogether.
Youre right i dislike this test....but not because of any mysticism ,percieved dishonor or anything else other that it being a waste of time, effort and a khukuri.
I also find it in poor form for forumites who had the honor to get to know uncle bill, to hold it over the head of those who werent as fortunate, As for exactly what he would have done in this situation we will never know.
Hi Shaman,
I haven't had my coffee yet, so maybe I should wait until I can do a good job of link hunting. Thing is, Cliff Stamp has evaluated HI khukuris. Similarly Outdoors Magazine has evaluated khuks from CS and HI. HI products both come off well under performance test, typically better than CS products, which seem to have uncomfortable kraton handles, lanyard holes set to break wrists, and the like. Not that HI blade are perfect. The Outdoor Magazine reviewer preferred Valiant Co. goloks.
I think at least one customer broke two LTC khuks before he bought an HI product. Anybody remember that thread?
If you're about to say that the current CS khukri designs haven't been evaluated, you're correct so far as I can find. It would be something worth revisiting, since the CS guys have apparently thickened their khuks to the point that they're now in HI territory (the LTC kukri was noticeably thinner).
I'd also point out that looking at the wider impacts of your actions isn't mysticism, merely practicality. It's something our ancestors used to do routinely, because if they didn't, they starved. In a world of increasing material limits, it's a good idea to pay attention to who you actions help and hurt, even if you're just buying a knife.
F
I haven't had my coffee yet, so maybe I should wait until I can do a good job of link hunting. Thing is, Cliff Stamp has evaluated HI khukuris. Similarly Outdoors Magazine has evaluated khuks from CS and HI. HI products both come off well under performance test, typically better than CS products, which seem to have uncomfortable kraton handles, lanyard holes set to break wrists, and the like. Not that HI blade are perfect. The Outdoor Magazine reviewer preferred Valiant Co. goloks.
I think at least one customer broke two LTC khuks before he bought an HI product. Anybody remember that thread?
If you're about to say that the current CS khukri designs haven't been evaluated, you're correct so far as I can find. It would be something worth revisiting, since the CS guys have apparently thickened their khuks to the point that they're now in HI territory (the LTC kukri was noticeably thinner).
I'd also point out that looking at the wider impacts of your actions isn't mysticism, merely practicality. It's something our ancestors used to do routinely, because if they didn't, they starved. In a world of increasing material limits, it's a good idea to pay attention to who you actions help and hurt, even if you're just buying a knife.
F
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2008
- Messages
- 710
wait a minute here....you are implying that an HI blade is at some type of disadvantage against more modern blades in this destruction test.....i think you are underestimating the strength of an HI blade, and your statement couldn't be further from the truth....
if you think that a "modern" heat treat and technology help make modern blades tougher than HI's, you are severly underestimating the toughness of a zone hardened blade of 5160 steel.....
i 've chopped through hangers, nails, computer minitowers, etc...with HI blades without damage.......
you make HIs seem like "old" fragile things that will crumble under testing.....i truly believe that HI makes the only blade that will NOT fail noss' test.......
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2004
- Messages
- 407
Cool, thanks!
- Joined
- May 9, 2002
- Messages
- 12,263
So how exactly does the forum activity correlate with Wu-Wu Mysticism? I haven't seen anyone here coddling their khuks like like some cherry antique sports car, huffing and polishing smudges with their elbows. There just seems to be a good number of posters that feel the purposely destroying a perfectly good knife just to see what kind of abuse they can handle before failure is kinda silly when the same kinds of tests have been done over, and over, and over, and over. There have been several links posted of over-the-top "real world" tests done by multiple people over the last 10 years. No one is trying to protect the khuk, opinions are just being voiced.
Some are going to find it educational, some are going to find it entertaining. I think that point has been established. My problem with Noss' testing is that it does not take into account a mean function of the knife in question. It is not "good science". I respect the gumption and drive, but whether the khuk snaps in half on the first chop or hacks through a WWII tank it is not going to be an accurate representation of an HI khuk. There are too many extraneous variables not taken into account. I know it's a silly thing to get hung up on, but I have spent thousands of dollars having this kind of thing hammered into my fragile little noggin.
Also, on a more depressing note, let's face it: Communists are in control of Nepal. I have absolutely no doubt that Yangdu and Pala and the kamis will find a way to keep supplying us with khuks. However, we have to at least entertain the idea that because of the political climate we might not always have HI khuks flowing so freely.
After 2 pages of posts, I think that this is still going to come down to an "agree to disagree" situation.
Some are going to find it educational, some are going to find it entertaining. I think that point has been established. My problem with Noss' testing is that it does not take into account a mean function of the knife in question. It is not "good science". I respect the gumption and drive, but whether the khuk snaps in half on the first chop or hacks through a WWII tank it is not going to be an accurate representation of an HI khuk. There are too many extraneous variables not taken into account. I know it's a silly thing to get hung up on, but I have spent thousands of dollars having this kind of thing hammered into my fragile little noggin.
Also, on a more depressing note, let's face it: Communists are in control of Nepal. I have absolutely no doubt that Yangdu and Pala and the kamis will find a way to keep supplying us with khuks. However, we have to at least entertain the idea that because of the political climate we might not always have HI khuks flowing so freely.
After 2 pages of posts, I think that this is still going to come down to an "agree to disagree" situation.
Maybe i shouldve made my point more clear.
What i am saying is that H.I, builds blades in the traditional manner, Taking a vehicle leaf spring and hand forging it, hand grinding.....the use of laha ....all done the same way as has been done since time immemorial. Tha other blades are mostly machine made thru stamped steel and precision grinding etc and with Epoxy of some form to hold them together. As fearn had stated before that it's like comparing oranges to apples and i find it amusing but mostly disheartening that some would feel that there is any comparison to be made between the two.Anyone who thinks that a cs khuk could even hold a candle to an H.I. khuk must have a serious brain defecit.
If you are chopping thru nails and computer towers and such with your khuk, well the fine for you....i just wont abuse my blades in that manner,out of respect for the blade and it's maker, so don't expect that i will be impressed by such abuse or by a Supposed "test" that promotes chopping rebar or steel pipe or the use of sledgehammer.....it just aint gonna happen.
I truly believe that the knife you guys are testing WILL fail this test as it is after all a destruction test and you guys are going to sure as hell beat it to death until it does, and for what? to prove it can be done? To supposedly see how much it takes? For the notoriety? You pick one. I happen to feel that each of these reasons is misguided and i feel that to treat a blade such as you guys are doing is just plain wrong....especially since this type of test has already been done in the past.
Honestly i'd rather see this khuk you are testing to be donated to the Ram fund or given to someone who loves H.I khuks and cant afford one and do something really productive with the blade rather than see it subjected to a needless and unwarranted test. For those of you who think it is entertaining to see a fine piece of equipment tortured to it's demise, you shouldve been taught to treat your toys better, after all not everyone has the means to afford very many of these fine blades.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2008
- Messages
- 710
don't worry about that yet....so far it's only you and i, so when more people donate, i will let you know via PM......
thanks.....
Last Visible Canary
actively parsing hurf durf
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2006
- Messages
- 4,577
and I've chipped out an edge after having tapped nails and embedded pebbles. Having the knife be hand forged does not hinder it as far as toughness during hard abusive tasks - however having the knife be handed forged in a "primitive" situation does add the element of variability to things like consistent hardness and specific hardness values.
3pt's low of optimal and you've got a 55rc edge that can roll and mash out on hard woods.
3pt's above optimal and you've got a 61rc edge that may chip or even blow out on hard metal impacts.
When done right, HI khukuries can do very well at the tests noss has performed on the other blades he's tested - HOWEVER, these khukuries do exhibit variability in how they are hardened, sometimes to an extreme. I've had blades that have an edge hardened from tip to cho, others only a 4" sweet spot. These things effect how the blades handle under extreme stresses. having a 1/2" spine won't help you at all if you happen to get a rogue 65rc edge.
This is why bill requested that customers give their blades a thorough starter test to make sure everything was in order. I wouldn't expect the kami's to test each blades rc at the sweet spot, the cho, the spine and the tip, so I don't expect the khuks to be consistent from blade to blade. When a blade fails do to the inevitable statistical spike of low or high hardness, HI has a good warranty and will give you another peice, this time likely well within tolerances of a usable blade.
I would give the kami's about a 95-97% success rate at keeping within those tolerances, which is pretty darn good considering what they work with.
Hopefully noss got an exemplary khukuri to work with.
while it's always good to see ram being helped out, there is a charity situation already involved in this whole thing.
Last edited: