Les...Please clear this up.

TAH

TAH

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Les,

Recently, there has been many discussions about knifemakers who have "helpers" in their workshop. Some have really surprised me! Can you share with us a list of the more recognized knifemakers who are or were truly a one man shop (i.e. Herron, Carter, Warenski, Chappel, Moran, Loveless, Hoel, Lake, Fisk, etc.)?

Thanks, Tom
 
FYI, according to a thread in the Les Robertson forum, Les is on vacation with family until July 15.

The question you ask is a Very sensitive one among knifemakers. I doubt very much that anyone is going to publically talk too much about this issue. Since you mention Loveless, I will tell you that I was very surprised to see AG Russell say in a thread recently that Loveless knives are now made in a partnership. That really surprised me!

Another example from the past is Rudy Ruana. The knives he made himself are much more valuable than those he made with his sons and others. The current Ruana knives are handmade in a small shop environment by several people since Rudy has since passed on. They are very good knives, but do not have the same value to collectors as those Rudy made by himself.

Anyway, Les is away, and although I know about a few other makers who have gone into a more 'production' mode, some quietly, some more openly, I decline to discuss them in this forum for many reasons.

Paracelsus
 
Para,
actually, Loveless himself volunteers this info . . . see Blade, Jan 01, p. 14.

But you are right . . . its not exactly a casual question--unless I am the customer, in which case I feel I have the right to know!
 
Loveless has never hidden this info. Over the years he has had a few helpers and apprentices. Even in his knifemaking video he freely lets you know about his partner Jim Merrit.
It was Ruana's son-in-law, Victor Hangas, who worked with him for many years and now makes Ruanas with his own sons. The mark is different on the blades than it was when Rudy was alive.
Jimmy Lile also had helpers, as did/do many others. Personally it's not a problem for me as long as they're open about it.
Just my .02

Dave
 
Where should this information be discussed if not here? As mentioned above, name knives made by more than one person greatly affect a buyer's decisions and the knife's ultimate value. It is a serious disservice to your peers if you KNOW factually of this and do not share that information.

I don't advocate posting innuendo or suspicions, only actual facts. The makers who readily admit to this practice (Reeve and Randall for example) are obviously not harmed by it. Only the liar, who pretends to be a sole maker while using 'gnomes' to help make his batches of knives by model, would come under fire. He'd deserve it too.

These forums are a great asset because of the free exchange of ideas and information. Keeping information to yourself because of some misguided sense of obligation to a liar does not further our community. My remarks here are not aimed at anyone in particular, by the way, I just think that there is no good to come from withholding info from your fellow knuts.
 
This is related to a fairly "big deal" political issue inside the Knifemaker's Guild right now. Some are proposing that a KG member disclose a number of things about their operation, especially if pieces/parts are cut or partly or fully finished outside their shop. This disclosure would include a sign on their table at the KG annual show.

This could extend to heat treating, and whether the knife is sole authorship or not.
 
I think that disclosure can only be a good thing as it will allow potential buyers to do their homework before putting their money down. This will prevent nasty suprises at a later date and potential later impact on values.

If everybody knows exactly what they are buying there should be no problems.

Regards,

Ed
 
Hi Paracelsus,

I agree with you about not listing or discussing knifemakers who hire help, but why not recognize the knifemakers who have been acknowledged as being a one man shop and give credit where credit is due?
 
This has been discussed before and is indeed a very touchy subject with some makers.

Others have posted in this thread about the fact that they have no problem with a maker having helpers as long as the customer is informed. This is where the actual problem arises, because out of all the makers that have shop help or farm out parts of the knife,(and there are many) VERY FEW will actually tell their customers.

I myself, have a serious problem with this. I have purchased knives from top makers only to find out later on that the knife was not a sole authorship (not including heat treat, which I have no problem with someone else doing), and will never buy a knife from those makers again. You would be amazed at the number of makers who engage in this practice.

Like others have said, having help is fine, but be upfront about it so I can decide for myself if I still want to purchase that knife. Is that too much to ask?
 
I'm looking for help right now! I need somebody to shape, grind, finish, heat treat and final finish/etch blades. I need someone else to do the shaping, gluing, pinning shaping, and finishing on handles. I can press the Concealex sheaths myself, but I would like another apprentice to drill the holes, make the G-Clips, shape the sheaths, finish them, and fine tune the fit for me. I can handle the shipping part, too. If you know anyone, have them send a resume! :barf:
 
Okay....I'm new.....I was trying to be nice, but I can see this is a tougher crowd than I thought. Soooooo, I've changed my mind! Yes, I would like to see a list of knifemakers who do use help and ones that do not.....but, I don't want to go first. Lifter, you start! Nobody is going to mess with you.

Who was the smuck that started this thread anyway....oh, never mind.
 
Originally posted by lifter4Him
Loveless has never hidden this info. Over the years he has had a few helpers and apprentices. Even in his knifemaking video he freely lets you know about his partner Jim Merrit.
Dave
Click to expand...

Very true.

In addition, in that video, made a number of years ago, it is clear that Bob had to use some significant magnification to get his work done. He's losing his eyesight. Some have reported that he needs assistance to navigate the occasional knife show he attends these days. Sad.
 
Hay, Fellas:

Where in left field has this come from? I have been dealing with knifemakers since 1953, I visited all I could find in 1968 and my mailing list was used to found the first two knife magazines and until the forums, including rec.knives I never heard anyone who was concerned about "Sole Authorship"

Can anybody tell me where this comes from? Can anybody tell me why it matters?

A. G. Russell agr@agr3.com
 
I think a LARGE part of this came up at the Guild show last July and has been an ongoing debate ever since......I like the fact that guys make knives in their shop, all by themselves, one at a time..... there are TOO MANY "parts assemblers" these days... :(
And like Mr Kious who QUIT the guild because of the flat out lies of a few......I dont care what kind of equipment you have....as long as its yours. :)
 
Well hell, where does it all end. Do I have to start casting my own screws now or better yet wheres my pick ax got to go mine some iron ore so I can smelt my own steel. Damn, that wont work either cause I didnt create the molecules and atoms they already existed.

This argument tends to irritate me. I use screws to assemble some of my knives, I dont make the screws so now ( if I was a Guild Member)I'd have to put a sign on my table saying I didnt make the screws becasue they were not fashioned from raw materials. Is the rolled Titanium I use a raw material, how about the damascus I use. I didnt make the damascus as far as forging it under the hammer but I did a large part of the preping and finishing of the materials involved.
This argument could go on forever.

The Guild needs to step back and reevalute their bylaws on some of this stuff as far as whats considered handmade/benchmade. "Im 64th on the list to become a "Probationary" Member of the Guild. The Joe Kious thing and this stuff about declaring all the minor thingr not done by the maker has me rethinking my application.
 
Holy Crap!! I actually agree with Mayo for once:)

I don't care if you use CNC machines, someone elses Damascus, or whatever, just be upfront about it. PERIOD. Why is it such a deep dark secret? Do the makers that "assemble" knives think that their customers deserve to be what in acuallity is being lied to?

Like I said before, I don't care if someone else does your heat treating or even if you send out your designs to be water jet or laser cut, as long as YOU do the actual grinding of the blade, handles, liners, etc., etc. Any monkey can profile a blade which is why laser or water jet cutting does not make a difference to me. If it makes for a more precise, less time consuming, more inexpensive way to get to your STARTING point, then more power to you. But don't try to snowball your customers into thinking that you completly made the knife, when all you did was put the final edge on it. It just is not fair to the paying customer, plain and simple.

Has this been going on for a long time? Sure, but it is much more prevalent these days as some makers are seeking to make a faster buck. I am seriously thinking about water jet cutting for some of my designs as a means to alleviate some of the bandsaw use, belt costs, save time, and obtain a more precise blade profile each and every time. And you can rest assured, I will tell my customers about it and the ENTIRE rest of the knife will be done with my hands and not sub-contracted, or done by an assistant.
 
Originally posted by tom mayo
I think a LARGE part of this came up at the Guild show last July and has been an ongoing debate ever since......I like the fact that guys make knives in their shop, all by themselves, one at a time..... there are TOO MANY "parts assemblers" these days... :(
And like Mr Kious who QUIT the guild because of the flat out lies of a few......I dont care what kind of equipment you have....as long as its yours. :)
Click to expand...

Agree!!!

A.T.
 
In my opinion, I buy a knife based on its merit rather than who made it. I know that doesn't apply to collectors, though, since who made it is often much more important than the quality of the knife itself. I guess it just depends on how things are represented. Nobody likes to play the fool. For example, I know John Greco employs apprentices. I have four of his knives, and maybe none of them were ever made by John. I don't really care. However, if I were to order a Joe Schmo knife and found out later that Joe Schmo never laid a hand on it, I would be a little miffed. I figure the guy who puts his name on the knife does most of the work, but maybe not. Oh well.<p>
Hey, Tom, I've noticed you're pretty good with a drill. Can I send my sheaths to you have the holes drilled in them rather than doing it myself? :p
 
Well, this might be a change. I hardly ever do more than a couple paragraphs in my replies but this one may be longer. I might even need Para to edit it for me:)

On the comment that having helpers is bad, but sending out for heat treat is good, I just don't understand that. The guy you send it out to is just a helper (and no offense intended for Paul Bos or the many heat treaters out there). I doesn't take a rocket scientist to do heat treating and too many makers will tell you they want it done professionally. Isn't that part of being a professional knifemaker? To me, it's the same as sending a blade to a blade grinder, to get it professionally done.

I went full time back in 1993, when I retired from the Army. Until last October I worked alone, except for my son who has been hanging around my shop all his life. His main function for the last few years is doing the CAD and CNC work on the factory prototypes that I do (on the CNC machine the he owns). He is a fulltime engineer for Remington Arms.

Last October, my new son in law, Mike Obenauf asked me if I could teach him how to make knives. I said sure, as long as you will teach my grandson, if I'm not around when he's ready. I had Mike bandsaw parts out and rough grind material for several months so he could learn the machines. I also had him grind blades out of any scrap steel that I could find every day for almost 4 months. After the first of the year I started teaching him how to make knives. At the Blade Show he introducted his first 4 fixed blades and first 4 folders. http://www.arizonacustomknives.com/obenauf-mike.html
I sure was proud. I don't know how you guys would define his status, but to me he is an apprentice, about to become a journeyman. If we don't have apprentices, how is a new maker going to learn?

The F4 Neck knife that we are selling does include work by my son, my son in law, and myself. I made that plain with the first picture Blues posted on this forum. There will probably be other projects coming along that will include the 2 "sons". I think it is great that the 3 of us can actually work together in my shop and not want to kill each other:)

Here's my new spec sheet: All natural handles are made by God, I just make them fit the knife. All synthetic handle are made by synthetic handle manufacturers, i just make them fit the knife. All steel is made my steel manufacturers, mostly Crucible. Damascus is made my Mike Norris, Devon Thomas, or Daryl Meier, I just grind blades from it. Titanium is made by titanium manufacturers, I just bandsaw and grind it to the shape I need. Heat treating is done by Me. I do not use a laser cutter, water jet cutter, or others, but I have in the past. Most of the screws I use are made by screw manufacturers, though some I make myself. I've made, and had made, leather and kydex sheaths for the small number of fixed blades I make. I buy zippered pouches for the folders from Wilkinson Manufacturing, one of the forumites on this forum. Hmmm, I guess that about covers it..

When customers complain about my over 2 year backlog, I just tell them that I work alone and bandsaw and grind all my own stuff, now that Mike is making his own knives.

Whew, I got a headache from all that writing:(

Any other knifemakers willing to go to this extent to help explain how and what we do? As Barney Fife, on the Andy Griffith show used to say---Let's nip it, nip it in the bud...
 
Originally posted by Kit Carson
If we don't have apprentices, how is a new maker going to learn?
Click to expand...

Kit brings up an excellent point. That's how things were done once upon a time: a master craftsman would take on an apprentice and teach him the craft. Eventually, that apprentice would become good enough to be recognized as a journeyman, capable of producing work on his own. If talented and hardworking enough, maybe even someday a master craftsman, who would in turn take on an apprentice, closing the circle.
 
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