Les...Please clear this up.

Yeah Kit on keeping the tradition going in the family! I really do not care if a knife is made by a one man shop or a production house because I am looking for quality user knives & that the knives are priced accordingly. I have both custom & production knives.

My concerns would be why a one man shop would change course & become a production house? Are they trying to fill the demands for theirs knives or are they more interested in making a lot of money?

I believe Chris Reeves made a successful move & I have two of his fix blades. There is one maker who I believe that has not made a successful move in that direction & I will not buy any of his production knives because it appears that he no longer cares about quality at the moment. So much for my rambling.
 
I'm in favour of a reasonable level of disclosure. To me, sole authorship adds value, but you have to be realistic about what sole authorship is. Even the old Japanese masters didn't do everything themselves. They couldn't. And I don't see anything wrong in having specialists do some aspect of the making of the knife where they do it best, like heat treating, if that's disclosed. That can go to make a better knife, and to make it possible for the maker to actually produce a reasonable number of knives at a reasonable cost and make a living without sacrificing quality. Even an apprentice or helper is fair enough, if the design and techniques are the "master's" and the making is under the supervision of the named maker. But the potential for abuse is obvious. Not in the case of a Carson or a Loveless, but you can't really blame the Guild [if that's the culprit] for wanting to set standards. Or can you?
As an outsider, all I can say is that it seems to me that a fair and realistic balance is necessary and all I would expect is honest disclosure. The price of higher end knives does include a premium derived from the authorship, not just the appearance or function of the knife. That's a reality of the market, I think. If there gets to be a problem, or a serious problem is perceived, maybe the time will come when collectors will expect "certificates of authenticity" or of "authorship" or the Guild or some other influential body will take it upon itself to categorize knives or makers by the degree of sole authorship, or set artificial standards for membership. I suspect very few people would look forward to such intrusiveness and red tape. I hope it doesn't go that far.
I was aware of some isolated beefs over the last few years concerning some makers, I think we all were, but I never had any doubts about the makers/dealers/knives I've chosen to deal with. I've always been dealt with honestly. I'd hope it could stay that way without some organisation setting rules. But I think there may be other opinions out there...
[edited for spellink]
 
I call myself a 'Custom' knife maker. I make each knife from scratch just like grandma's biscuits. When you make them like I do, it's not a very lucrative business. Sure, I have fun making knives and have pride in knowing that I made the knife from start to finish. Would I hire help if I could afford it? HELL YES!

Three guys can make more knives than one. To me, it's simple mathematics. Of course, if I had other folks working with me, every last bit of it would have to pass my scrutiny in order to deserve my stamp. That's just simple business.

Now grandma didn't grind the flour she made them biscuits from. And she probably didn't make the butter you put on them either (I like molasses with mine). But they sure were good weren't they? They weren't from a can like you can buy nowadays. She might have even had some help making them from sister Susie-Q. But you didn't mind while you were eating them did you? No. Same thing here. If they're good knives, buy them and be happy. Sole authorship sounds like something out of readers digest condensed books. Who wrote that story anyway?

Sometimes you just have to take things at face value and be happy. If you want a sole authorship :barf: knife then go the extra mile and make sure you get it (ask Les, he does his homework). But don't beat up knife makers just for the sake of beating them up because you can in this forum. Who cares how many knifemakers it takes to make a knife? A knifemaker is a knifemaker. No matter who he or she works for. These are just my opinions. Now, let's see, did I miss anything? Why the hell are you reading this anyway? I don't know what I'm talking about. I make knives all by myself and don't have the money or good sense to hire help.
 
I think that Kit got what I am talking about whether he knows it or not.

He fully admits to having some help in cutting out blanks on a bandsaw and using laser/water jet cutting in the past, and that by my standards is fine. Like I said, ANYONE when shown how, can profile a blade. I personally don't think the actual "knifemaking" begins until after the profile step. It takes no talent to profile a blade, period. And if that is what a makers apprentice does, I have no problem with that.

Kit also mentioned that he has collaborated with his son and son in law on a knife. Guess what? You at least had the courtesy to TELL people that this was taking place. I think that showing someone how to do this or that, and letting them profile, or practice on scrap steel is absolutely fine, but when that person starts to grind knives that will be sold by the teacher as his own, and the maker tells no one about it, that is where the line needs to be drawn.


I believe that if a maker has other hands involved in making the knife AFTER the profile stage, he has the responsiblity to let his customers know. We all know that there are makers who put the final grind on a knife and sell it as though they did all the work themselves. That is just plain wrong.

As far as heat treating goes, I tend to disagree. A great number of makers do not have the ability to correctly treat a blade or the cash to buy the oven and do the cryo if need be. I PERSONALLY don't have a problem with a knife being treated by someone other than the maker. And as far as screws, and any other number of small parts, it is just not reasonable for someone to expect a maker to make his own screws, etc.

The whole point of this stance is that a maker should be honest and not try to have his customers who spend their hard earned dollars on a knife, believe that the maker who did nothing but put a finishing edge on a blade, constructed the whole knife.

I am not one of the elitist thinkers that feel a maker should produce every single piece of a knife, just be honest about it. Am I wrong in my thinking?
 
Hmmm....

Does all this mean that some Randall's could be properly classified as "Custom" knives based on their handmade status, as opposed to being classified improperly as "Production" knives?
 
OH Melvin, please don't start ANOTHER RMK thread.


All my knife work, minus heat treating, is done by my little ol hands. I own no computorized equipment. Heck I don't even have a mill. Everything I do is by eye.

For Damascus I buy either Ferguson nickle or Devin's.

For my asian sword work I use alot of Lohmans products. For my rapiers, Jim Hrisoulas forges my blades.

Several years ago my wife finished the handrubbing on a stillito I was working on. I slipped and put the blade under my thumb nail all the way to the first knuckle. Just recently Bill Herndon soldered a set of bolsters on serial #3001 (Model 1).

Saying that heat treating is part of being a knifemaker is all fine and dandy. If someone wants to buy me the vacuum oven and nitro tanks, I will start doing it myself.
 
Melvin with all due respect, your Randall diatribes are getting a little old here to say the least. :rolleyes:

Your "agenda" would be better served to establish contact with some Randall experts that you must deal with and ask them if they would consider moderating a Randall forum here and then getting with Spark.
In the meantine, you are more than welcome to join in here on Custom discussions. If Spark decides to rename this the handmade forums, you are welcome to discuss Randalls here. (there is no definition du jour on this forum it has been consistant from the start) and on KF in the Randall forums. In the meantime this forum will stick with a Custom standard, that has been the industry norm since I have been involved seriously with cutlery (going on 20 years now). There will be no in "lieu ofs" until we have someone with the expertice to moderate the area you have the most interest in or unless the owner of this forum states otherwise.

As far as where you sell your knives it looks like the doors are open in Custom Fixed blades. With the Busse's and Bucks listed in there now, the Randalls should stand out very well. My opinion is that you will get a better return on ebay.

You can hammer all you want but an excellent knife made by many salaried hands is not what we discuss here at this time. Nor is that type of knife classified as "custom" by the vast majority of people in the field of knives.

I have an idea.
Call up one of the reputable makers that make their own knives. Tell them what you want. Talk about steel blade shape, edge geometry, materials, heat treat and construction. Can that be done with a "custom" Randall?

(I don't know either way for sure as far as the Randall shop).

Their in lies the distinction. Try it; you might see the difference that you fail to acknowledge at this point. The knives that I enjoy the most were made by one person and influenced by my input during the phases of the knive's construction.

(Just so you know moderators are not paid :)
 
RW, if you'd like to do your own heat treat, I'll sell you a started kit. For only $300.00 (plus shipping) it includes:
1- 36"x1"x1/8" bar 1084
1- 36"x1"x1/18" bar 1084
1- magnet
1- propane torch
1- 32oz. bottle extra virgin olive oil

I have been told that the kit is worth every penny! :rolleyes:
 
A lot of this has to do with what type of knife the collector is purchasing and for what reason. Is it being purchased as a "using" knife or as a work of art? If it's a high-end investment piece, most collectors would agree that they would want the knife made by one person. How would the art collector feel if he found out that his Van Gogh or Picasso was painted by several hands??? To me, this is the same. These guys are just using steel and ivory instead of paint and canvas.
 
TAH,

As a collector I agree with your comments, as I posted earlier, I have no problem with more than one pair of hands being involved in making a piece, but I would like to know about it.

One of the fun bits of this hobby is falling in love with a knife and then wanting to find out as much as you can about it and the maker(s). This can lead to the purchase of one or more of their knives.

This is no different to wanting to by art from an artist or a school. Both are valuble to the purchaser and if you love the piece it is not relevant how it was arrived at. When you start to do your Homework, you can be very disapointed to find out that not all Impresionist artists are a Monet.

My rule is buy what you like - but know what you are buying. Disclosure helps in this regard - does anybody think any less of Kit's knives after his comments earlier in this thread - I do not and I have one.

Regards,

Ed
 
Here's the problem as I see it -

If you want a handmade, sole-authored Ford F350, it's going to cost you a lot of money, take a lot of time, and chances are, the truck will just plain suck.

Sure, knives and trucks aren't the same, so the standards shouldn't be the same. I'm just trying to illustrate a point. Suppose a half-assed, mediocre knifemaker designs a knife and has the best smith in the world forge the steel, the best screw-maker in the world make the screws, the best engraver in the world make it pretty, the best grinder in the world grind the blade, etc., he will presumably have a really, really good knife and can proudly offer it as such. Any collector would be proud to own that knife.

But consider an established, well-reputed maker who commands premium prices for his work because his knifemaking skills are known to be among the best in the world. A customer of his will gladly pay a few extra dollars to own a knife that he knows will live up to the standards he expects of it. After a while, this maker begins to realize that 95% of the knives he sells are never even used. He recognizes the value of his reputation and his stamp. He does not recognize what that stamp represents to a customer or he simply doesn't care anymore, so he tries to capitalize on his own success by misleading his customers and misrepresenting his product. He hires unskilled shop-hands to do half the work and sells a knife made not with his skills, but bearing the stamp that represents those skills. He is a liar and a cheat.

A Brend Model 2 costs much more than a similar knife by an unknown maker because if you need a hard-core fighter that will not let you down, you know damn well the Brend will satisfy your needs. You don't want to, or simply can't afford to take a chance buying something from a maker whose product you don't know well enough to trust. Imagine how you'd feel if the blade broke off at the tang and your safety were compromised because someone else made that knife - someone whose name isn't stamped on the blade and whose reputation isn't at stake - someone who does not posess the refined skills, experience, and knowledge of Walter Brend.

Oh you'd be mad.
 
TAH
Since you were awondering and my name was mentioned thought I would say the I work by myself in the shop. I do have a secretary that does most of the office work for me so I can stay in the shop more. But I do all of the shop work. Occasionally I do go out to Jere Davidison or Tim Herman for engraving and am tickled to put their names as embellishing. And on occasions I do collaborate with another maker to do something different but their names are on the blade too. I actually enjoy working with others on a collaboration piece. You get to learn what they know.
Kit was right about the trainee. I studied with Bagwell in his shop. Did not make his knives but did learn in there as well as countless others. As long as you are honest enough with your clients that could play poker with them over the telephone you have nothing to worry about.
Interesting thread and appears to be a precursor to the guild business meeting.
jf
 
I haven't seen the discussion go in the direction of comparing helpers and apprentices. I hope we can delineate between a hired helper whose job will never go beyond menial tasks and an apprentice, who is actually learning to make knives. Of course, the apprentice is going to get some hands on experience on the established maker's knives. It was a little different for me, because I started making fixed blades, and all Mike Smith makes is folders, so I started making my own knives right off the bat, but we all know guys who started as an apprentice and got broken in by working on the teacher's knives. I would not expect that maker to tell me "Well, my apprentice Willie Wannamakaknife profiled the blade and drilled the holes." In that kind of circumstance, I would expect the high standards of the maker to be my guarantee that the knife is everything it would be without the assistance of the apprentice. I would not expect him to tell me that his apprentice tapered the tang or epoxied the handle. To me, that is the essence of knifemaking...passing down the skills and carrying on a certain style or method of working. I look at the Loveless style, and it was improved and carried on with Johnson and it was shared with Velarde, who took it another step with super precision integrals and who knows where the next step goes, but I love to see the relationships like that. I would hate to see someone like Mike Snody not making the superb knives he does now, because Edmund Davidson would not teach him anything for fear of having another body in the shop. I imagine a lot of makers would be reluctant to take on apprentices if they had to start cataloging who did what on their knife.
 
Jerry,

Thanks for your reply. I hope you were not offended by being named as an example, but that's what you get when you are one of the best in the business. Please take that as a compliment to your work. Actually, you are on another list of mine called....."The Knives I Need In My Collection List."

Respectfully, Tom
 
Tom
Naw, no problem. It is always good for people to ask and for makers to tell. The only ones I have had helping me in my shop is a bunch of gremlins working overtime.
When Master smith James Cook was starting out he did learn in my shop. I would do a part of mine and he would do the same on his knife. He has became a good mastersmith in his own right now with his own his style.
Thanks for the compliments just let me know anytime I can help.
jf
 
I feel that most custom knife collectors are not just purchasing a knife. They are purchasing a part of me, A.T. Barr. I expect that they *think* that the knife is made only by me. They know I purchase the screws and pivot pin and use Paul Bos for my heat treating. They *think* that I profile the blade, grind they blade, profile the liners, grind the liners to shape, fit the scales, and
so on. And they are right. That's what I do. No one else, just me.

I feel the problem is, some makers have not been 100% truthful. It seems to me, if John Q. Public, walks up to a knifemaker's table and sees 30 or 40 knives that feel the same, look the same, have exactly the same action, they know that no human being can duplicate that many knives, all exactly same. If John Q. Public, likes a specific knife and he knows that he is purchasing one of 1,000, then what's the beef?

But, if he thinks he is purchasing a one of a kind knife, and then sees them in a catalog for 50% off, we have probably lost a customer forever.

To me, the bottom line is, we must be honest with our customers. My word and name is the only thing that counts.
 
This thing is getting silly. If you want to know who made what, when, then ask. I do most of my own stuff but not the sheaths, and I send my steel to Paul Bos for heat treating. (Kit, I think you're a bit off base comparing heat treating to outside grinding.) If someone has a $20,000 CNC system, then they use it and it's likely no less efficient than having something done outside by a vendor. Curved lines don't get machined into knife handles by any manually controlled process I know of.

If this issue bugs you, then ask before you buy. For the most part I think this is about some egos that don't have much else to say.
 
I'm not here to advocate that us knifemakers hire out any or all our tasks and take credit. I take a great deal of pride in doing all of the work myself including heat treat and cryo. But "All of the Work" is a subjective term. In my case I purchase the screws, the titanium, the damascus and the handle scales all in "raw" form. I then cut out my specific shapes, rough finish, drill/tap all holes as nessasary, embelish, heat treat, cryo, temper, grind edge, final finish, tune and sharpen the knife. I consider the whole knife made by me. I give Devin credit for his materials, the scales take credit for themselves but but the rest of the stuff nope I aint giving credit to the large rolling mill that gave my titanum its final shape ect, ect.

I enjoy making my knives and have no plans to change this aproach but I wont hesitate to upgrade my equipment and if I could get a CNC machine Id use it. Anything I can use a machine for to speed up the process and produce a better product I'll do. Its been such for eons. Humans have went from wood to stone to bronze to iron to steel to titanium to ceramic ect. Its called progress!!!!!!!!.

And this brings me to my final thougt on this subject.This is just a food for thought statement. I know it's going to piss some of you off and thats okay. You are entitled to your opinin, no matter how wrong you may be.

In the "Construction World" the people that get credit fot "Building the Building" are the "Arcithect and the the Main Contractor" I highly doubt that the Arcithect or the Owner of the Contracting Company lift a finger to build anything(Im speaking of big projects). The work is subbed out to smaller outfits and hired help. Who gets the glory? It aint the hired help. The Architect and Contractors names are all over everything without actually building anything.
 
Jerry (NOT FISK)
I feel you are the one who is off base about heat treating your blades. Not Kit.

The heart of a knife is the blade. The end result
of a blades cutting properties are up to the maker.
Heat treating the blade of a knife is the one process that a custom knifemaker should take pride in and be very sure of. this process should be number one on your list and not trusted to anyone but you the knifemaker IMHO.

The problem it seems is that everyone wants an exclusion for there cause.
Sample:
I send my heat treating out to be done.... but its still a totaly custom knife that I made here in my shop.
So on and so on.

Sending a blade to be heat treated is the same as having a vendor grind your blades.
Your asking for one process to out weight another. A little lie is ok but one I cant afford or refuse to educate myself about is bad?
Black is Black and White is White.
Lets call a spade a spade.
Everything is equal.
The problem is that some folks feel one process is ok and another is taboo. Jeolousy and finger pointing rears its ugly head as always. This is the same old do as I say not as I do sillyness that has been going on for years in the knifemaking industry.
If a maker vends out parts or process's for there knives they shoud say they do.

CNC is a good whippin boy example.
Sure cnc will do great things. But first of all the person doing the work has to take on the responsability of the cost of the cnc machine, the training that is involved, upkeep, tooling ect in using a CNC machine.
Most cant figure it out or are so afraid of learning something new that they wet there self
just thinking about it. So its easier to say its evil. The unknown causes fear in people.

I think cnc is a tool that can help design BETTER knives that are precise and function better. It doesent matter if you have a CNC or not. The knives all have to be finished buy hand (EVERY ONE OF THEM). Yes a cnc can do nice embelishment to a knife LIKE CURVES and erogonomics that fit the hand. Damn them!:D Better stuff on a knife.
But so can a pantagrapgh or a tracing mill. SAME THING!
How many makers have a pantagraph? How many have a mill.... LOTS!! With fixturing most anything can be done on all of these machines !

You still have to start with RAW stock and make it into something. You have to have vision. That is the genius behind making knives not machines. Machines are TOOLS!!

I feel Computer Aided Design is the best thing that has happend to the knifemaking industry in the last 50 years.
I can still see the jack knives from 10 years ago that used to come out with the blade width to handle ratio that was so skinny it made me cringe.
Remember the ugly knives? They looked like chickens with skinny legs and a big body.;)

Computer aided design has re-newed the industry. Like it or not its the truth. Go ahead and whine.
The horse and buggy folks whined when the Automobile took over. See history repeating itself?

The truth is that most knifemakers dont have the funds to invest in cnc machines. Most (like Beo said above) would like to have them. But for the time being its easier for some to claim foul. How about going out and getting a loan and investing in your future? I would say theres a self asteam issue to be addressed first with most who slam folks who want to give there customers the best that they possibly can.

As long as the knifemaker makes the knives in his shop I feel its his own business how he makes them. Its there design, there knife, there material choices, ect. These are the important things.
Every way of making a custom knife is OK. Live and let live?

If you have helpers say you do.
If you farm out parts or buy pins and handle material and other stuff say ya do. Whats the big deal? Fraid of the big bad wolf?
Put the information in a public place or on a information sheet sent with the knife.
If the maker farms out ANYTHING AT ALL it should be noted. NO LITTLE LIES!
Truth is truth folks. Lets not exclude anything while on this subject.

I buy my:
Screws
stainless steel
Talonite
carbon steel for forging
flux
prophane (havent figured out how to make it yet)
wd40
pins
pivots
carbon fiber
ivory
pearl
gold
cutting tools
titanium
paper for my printer
computers
phone long distance
cigars
springs (only some... some i make from the stainless steel I buy)
Stainless Damascus (I forge the carbon)
wood for handles
ball bearings for detents (tried to make them.. to expensive)
Lots more stuff I just cant think of it right now.
Some engraving I farm out or collaborate with the engraver!

Have a good one! :D
 
Darrel (not... :))

"Sending a blade to be heat treated is the same as having a vendor grind your blades."

Now that is silly...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top