Liquid Metal is here! well at least some prototypes

Ron, I am confused a bit. You say you cant compare this material to steel. I think you have to be able to compare it to steel, I made the same mistake with Talonite. That being said I had Sal do the CATRA on Talonite, and those results mirrored my results of backyard testing in my shop.

But when put head to head with Talonite in actual cutting, LM1 out performed Talonite hands down.
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In my shop that wasnt the case, I could really tell no difference between the two cutting cardboard. I didnt keep the records you did on your tests but I was just curiios. I cut a $hitload of carboard from a furniture store to see if the difference was "hands down" as you claim. It dosent matter to me because I have no monetary stake in Talonite, or LM1 other than making some knives from it.

I would love to try some of the new alloys, as long as there is no Be in it.
 
Rob, do know aprox how much cardboard was cut? With you showing them as even, that is still great news as far as I am concearned. Not for the custom world, but I knew from the get go that the custom world would be a very small market. But once things are fully up and running in the production arena it could be very good news indeed.

As to the Be. I understand your concern, but it is really a non-issue. That is the differance between mechanical alloys and chemical alloys.

Even though water is 2/3rds hydrogen, it does not catch fire. No matter what form water takes (liquid, solid or vapor) it is still water. That is because it is a chemical bond. You are no longer dealing with Hydrogen and Oxygen, you are dealing with water molecules.

There is no such thing as a Talonite (or S30V or O1) molecule. They are mechanical alloys that make up a material. LM1 is a molecule. No matter what form the material takes the molecule remains stable. You will not be exposed to Be you will only be exposed to LM1 which is safe (other than a basic dust hazard). It took a long time for this to sink into my mind. It was not until my wife (the scientist) sat down and explained it to me like I was in third grade that I understood it. That is why I was paraniod of the Be at first as well. Thats one of the areas where I have to laugh at myself.

When atoms are locked into molecules they no longer behave the way they did when they were free atoms. They take on a whole new set of properties. They only way to release the atoms is to split the molecule (not something we can do in the shop). Hence water is safe even though it is mostly made of flamable gas. And salt is safe even though it is made of two toxic materials.

I will be proving this shortly by having a Be meter put up in my shop during a grinding session. If what the LMT researchers and other material scientists have been telling me is true, no Be should be measured. If Be does show up, I will publically recend these statements and start kicking some scientist butt!

Back to the CATRA thing. Talonite still has carbides, and is a solid, so should behave in a manner similar to other materials. LM1 has no carbides and is a liquid, thats where the problem lies.
 
Ron,

Maybe the Be issue could actually be put to rest if the actual Be compound it forms is disclosed. Since most Be compounds (yes, the chemical compounds) are also highly toxic, not just the pure metal, it is still an open question of whether the Be hazard exists.

This is probably not an issue for the average knife user. But it would be very important to a knife maker. Almost all Be compounds are highly toxic, especially when inhaled. Look at any good reference and see the TLV limits for the various Be compounds. They are quite a bit lower than a "basic dust hazard."
 
Wish I could give the exact formula, but I don't have it. It is part of the intellectual property of the material owners.

All I know is the basic makeup. 60%Ti , 30% Zi , 3% Be , with the balance made up of Copper and Nickle.

I know that Be bearing Copper is hazardous. But it is a mechanical alloy. What are these other Chemical Alloys containing Be?
 
Ron, I hammered that last post out in a hurry without a lot of thought and didnt get my point across.

Thanks for the Be info, Ill be interested in the results of the test and hope none is detected.

In comparing materials....

Back to the CATRA thing. Talonite still has carbides, and is a solid, so should behave in a manner similar to other materials. LM1 has no carbides and is a liquid, thats where the problem lies.
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The thing I am trying to understand is how one can compare LM1 to Talonite, but not to steel and use the same tresting criteria? Talonte, Stellite, 420-HC etc are not liquids either. All you could compare LM1 to is glass, obsidian, Guinness etc. (In that test Guinness would win hands down in my shop! :D) I guess I can say I learned a lot when I was selling Talonite, and people want and demand to know how non ferrous materials compare to steels. Thats why6 Talonite has CATRA numbers, as LM1 does as well.

In the end no matter what the most important thing about this is

1) Satisfied customers.

2) If you are lucky make a living at it.

3) Reputation, honor and dignity remail intact.

4) Every time you log on to the forums be wearing your Talonite, LM1 or Titanium underwear!

:D
 
Originally posted by R.W.Clark
WTFOver, there is a major scuba company setting up molds as I type. They will be producing both fixed blades and folders. The price point should be under $100 IIRC.
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That will be very nice to see. The OceanMaster Fixed Blade Beta-Ti Dive Knife and Server Dive Folder are very nice but this has the possibility of being even better. And the price point you show would be just right.

It is real hard to overcome the Be issue (or non-issue)... We all have this beat into our heads from long ago that Be is "BAD". The concept of "GOOD" Be or even "ACCEPTABLE" Be is a hard one to overcome. I keep going back to the FDA approval for medical use and figure that the Be in this case is "ACCEPTABLE" at least for the End-User.

As to the "performance" as seen on CATRA (or other testing)... I'm no "Rocket Scientist" (but I think a few work for Liquidmetal Technologies). I think we might need to look to Obsidian to get a good grasp on this. Glass and Obsidian produce some very "sharp" edges and are quite "hard" (Rockwell H in the 90's I think) however this "hardness" is also accompanied by "Brittleness". LM1 produces a very "sharp" edge and does not suffer from "Brittleness" to the same extent. The cost (in part I think) is the "Hardness", can't have it all and this trade was needed.

Now with Knapped Obsidian (Flint.. Etc.) Knives the actual edge is truly serrated (and made up of many small but VERY smooth edges). The "Hardness" allows these serrations to "Saw" through material in much the same way as carbides do for metals used for most knives. The "Hardness" of the glass or obsidian allows these serrations to function however the "Brittleness" tends to make these knives difficult to maintain. LM1 is not as "Hard" as glass or obsidian and so would have its micro-serrations worn off quicker. Thankfully it is not as "Brittle".

Where the problem might be is that while glass or obsidian or LM1 rely on these micro-serrations to achieve cutting performance, neither glass or obsidian are machined the way LM1 is with a long, smooth, continuous edge. As the micro-serrations break down on the LM1 material the edge gets way too "smooth" and lacking the carbides needed to recreate these micro-serrations you end up with a very sharp edge that does not cut (or should I say slice) up to its potential. Now you need to either rough up the edge slightly or continue to cut with it waiting for "Shear-Banding" to recreate these micro-serrations at a microscopic level on the edge. (We saw this in January at Ron's when the knife would not seem to cut as well and then seem to get sharper as we continued to use it.) Since the LM1 material is "homogeneous" (I think that is the work I want) it wears to a totally smooth edge while metals wear the softer material off first and leave the harder carbides behind to act as micro-serrations.

I have no idea if anything I just typed makes any sense. Please let me know if I am way out of line.

Lorne
 
"I have no idea if anything I just typed makes any sense"

Lorne, I know the feeling!:D.

But what you said sums it up exactly. The CATRA test does not give the shear banding aspect a chance to take effect. So you are testing a very sharp edge that won't cut. Makes no sense if you say it out loud. But that is basically what is happening.

One of the newer breeds of LM is said to be Rc63! Can't wait to try it out. But it will most likely be years down the road.

Rob, I totally understand. BUT, it has to be compared to something. Talonite is the closest thing to comparing apples to apples. I don't want to be taken wrong and I can see how what I have said could be taken poorly. I would like to clarify what I meant when I said that it is not fair to compare it to steels. It is normal to compare materials on a base line so to speek. As in X cut 10ft and Y cut 11ft. I did it myself in the cardboard marathon by putting it up against O1. But what I hate seeing is biased testing that puts LM1 up against a high performance steel in a chopping test or similar task that LM1 is not designed for. Then the "reviewer" gives LM1 a bad review just to boost both his own ego and the products of the company he thinks is the worlds best. On the other hand I really enjoy working with guys like you and Trace. When getting the best knife for the job is the ultimate goal only good things happen. And that is reguardless of the outcome.

Hey, if you want to grind a blade out of D.U. I would be happy to compare the two. You will know me, as I will be the one in the bio hazard suit:D.
 
I know that Ti is difficult to machine and would not normally considered for a Detent because of its Low RC but that Low RC might just be the ticket for LM.
 
Originally posted by R.W.Clark
"The "tone" of my post was a reaction the the overly positive (mis)represetation of this material."

You had better be willing to say that to my face boy! I do not like being called a liar! Unless you are willing to back up your slander I suggest you go back into your troll hole and stop the keyboard commando junk!

Considering your qualifications, you don't know jack ****!

I have had this stuff in my hands for almost a year now and have been working with it on a daily basis. You just read some numbers. Sounds like another Cliff Stamp slamming materials out of hand.

Actually, considering when this person decided to make his first post, I would say he is connected to Talonite or Stellite and has a personal agenda with the defeat of a replacement alloy.

Tell ya what new comer. Let the market decide which one of us is full of it. Several other well respected knifemakers have also helped me with testing. They have the same thoughts on the material that I do. I have notified them as to the presence of this thread and they will chime in when they have the time.
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Wow! I'm just an observer here -- not a knifemaker, not a metallurgist. I have to say that I was first awed by the report of the liquid metal, but didn't think very critically about it. Took it kinda like gospel. Then I saw nhamilto40's post and thought, "Oh my, the bubble had to burst sometime."

THIS post, quoted above, seems HIGHLY SUSPECT in its hyper-defensiveness. It does not quote and dispell the claims made about the metal's properties. It sounds much more blustery and boastful than anything nhamilto40 said, and what's more, it gets ad hominem and still does nothing to disprove the allegations made by Hamilto regarding the METAL'S properties. This post does, however, make baseless conjectured allegations about nhamilto40's supposed links to Talonite... Curious.

---Jeffrey
 
It's not my position, nor my intent, to defend those more than capable of defending themselves, but I'll tell you this much, for what it's worth...

My wife Edna and I just spent a good portion of Saturday with our friend R. W. Clark, and the good Mr. Mayo, discussing the pros and cons of LM...in the process I purchased a pre-ordered custom R.W.C. LM model #10 as a Birthday present for Edna, as a match for her 'prototype' model.

Over lunch, Ron mentioned that he hadn't slept in the last 36 hours, making knives for the show, a show that he wasn't tabled at...in an attempt to insure that back orders were met...

Crankiness aside, and with no new orders being taken until the back orders subside, the man is working his ass off! Hope you'll understand.

Ron, if you'd like me to take any of these blades to work for examination, and we have 'most' of the requisite equipment, please advise.

Tickled pink with LM, I remain,

Mel
 
By now everyone's tempers should have cooled off. So where are we? Have they improved LM any from a knifemaker's perspective yet? Has anyone done anymore playing with the substance yet?
 
Ummm...
Can I offer some thoughts? I keep seeing references to this material's machineability. Why does this even come up? Personally, I thought the whole advantage of this stuff was the way it could be cast or whatever. :confused: I realize I'm no marketing genius or anything, but I'd think if anybody wants this material to succeed in the free market, you'd need to differentiate it by doing all kinds of stuff with it that is not easy to do with materials traditionally machined (steel). How about multi fullers, complex "grinds", piercings, thick reinforcing ridges, (nearly every knife on the market today is made from barstock/sheet. Why limit yourself to shapes & thicknesses that are normally made from barstock?) complex surface textures like scales or something... How about a hollow blade for the ultimate lightweight knife? Stilletos with 3 cutting edges. I mean, all I've seen so far are plain flat surfaces and the simplest of blade shapes. Make the blade truly three dimensional! You have the opportunity to bring shapes to the market that no one else can do for the same price. Someone mentioned making bolsters/handles from this stuff too. Can you say ENGRAVING? If this stuff can be cast as precisely as claimed, then you should be able to cast realistic hand engraving right into the handles that's as fine as anything from an English gunmaker, but without his price!

I honestly don't care whether this material succeeds. If it can't chop like steel, I probably won't buy it. But... Maybe I could be persuaded to accept this material's limitations if you gave me something so aesthetically different...
 
I might guess that the high cost of creating an injection mold would limit the "non-stock removal" products to very large production shops. Custom makers would not have the volume (and the result would not be a "Custom")

The question now is will a large production shop move forward with this?

Well, I would love a nice Dive Knife done in LM and the material is perfect for that application so I'm sure we will see one done. I just think that we now have this material that Ron and others have really just started to understand and now as more people learn about it an appliation that fits the material will be discovered. Also there will be new LM matrix products with possibly better a fit for this market.

As you read through the thread you see that it is a very nice option to have available but it is just that... an option. It is not billed as the new "Super Steel that will replace all others". It has limits and the implementation will need to take that into account.
 
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