Liquid Metal is here! well at least some prototypes

All is going very well on the whole project. There are now about 30 makers working with LM1. Factory interest continues to grow with alot of stuff in the works. There is actually so much going on that I just can not keep on top of it anymore.

There are now about 55-60 knives in the hands of users. I have gotten feedback from about 10 or so customers and all have given very high marks to the material. Jeff Randall is taking a LM1 Model 10 as his primary knife on his next trip to Peru at the end of the month. 16 days in the heart of the rain forest is no easy test for any material! I am excited to hear his feed back when he returns.

Dealers are really starting to show interest. The first dealer to carry it was Julie at Arizona Custom Knives (still several in stock). Blade Art bought a couple of Sprites from me in Atlanta. They were sold almost over night. Both Triple Aught Design and A.G.Russel have exclusives in the works. TAD should be getting theirs within a week or so.

Folders are still in the works. I have done up about a dozen liner locks for Liquidmetal Executives and they worked out great. Some folder makers are reporting that the detend ball wears on the blade, but I have not run into this problem. There is one reason that I can think of for this to be happening. All the guys who showed me their folders at Blade were making frame locks, and they all had really heavy pressure on the lock. The pressure of the liner locks I was doing was no where near as heavy so that may explain the problem. If it does turn out to be a real problem, we already have a solution in mind to take care of it.

The biggest industries taking notice of LM1 knives are military, diving (water sports) and cooking.

Due to customer complaints I will no longer be using the "big ass" Liquidmetal logo. Instead I will be using a small LM1 logo located on the back of the blade (same location as I mark the rest of my steels). Alot of guys were turned off by the big logo.

I will be trying to get some LM1 blades into the hands of a few other "professional" reviewers soon (ie Hood, Ewing, Breed etal). So hopefully there will be more impartial views coming soon.

Been getting a little resistance from the Talonite die hards, but that was only to be expected. Also it seems that the whole Be scare is dying out. More folks are beginning to understand the unique properties of this material so they no longer treat it like a conventional mechanical alloy. But there are still those out there that just can not grasp just how differant this material is compared to other materials. So they still are trying to apply old testing standards to it. Of course when put LM1 in a machine designed to test steel it fails hands down. That is simply because it is not steel and does not function (on the atomic level) like a steel or other crystiline structure does. But the good news is that most all the end users understand that they are working with a material that is not bound by the same old rules. I guess LM1 is kind of the "NEO" (matrix referance) of the knife world.

Never found out who hacked my system. Never really tried to find out. It wasn't actually my personal computor that was hacked but the yahoo system that houses the mail servers. I reported it and just let them take it from there. Haven't had any problems since, but I keep hard copies of all my files now just in case.

Thanks
 
Originally posted by R.W.Clark
Folders are still in the works. I have done up about a dozen liner locks for Liquidmetal Executives and they worked out great. Some folder makers are reporting that the detend ball wears on the blade, but I have not run into this problem. There is one reason that I can think of for this to be happening. All the guys who showed me their folders at Blade were making frame locks, and they all had really heavy pressure on the lock. The pressure of the liner locks I was doing was no where near as heavy so that may explain the problem. If it does turn out to be a real problem, we already have a solution in mind to take care of it.
Click to expand...

Are you saying the detent ball is wearing into the blade, or that the blade is wearing away the detent ball? I would think (and hope) the latter, but the way the phrase reads, it almost implies the former.
 
I handled a brown canvas micarta handled Model 10 at Blade, many, many, many times and really liked how it felt. Very light, very ergonomic, and a tremendously useful blade design. Yeah, I'm a user, not a collector. Still kicking myself for not just going ahead and taking the big plunge. :( Anyway, I couldn't believe how lightweight (no bolsters plus LM1) this knife was and how well it fit my hand.

I'm following the liquidmetal threads with great interest. I'd love to hear more reports from users on these blades.....though not as much as I'd like to be testing it myself, but I guess other folks reports will have to do for now. :p Really neat stuff.

It was really great to meet you and your dad at Blade. You owe your old man big time for covering your booth for you on Saturday. What a great guy! It didn't sound like he got much more sleep than you did. ;)

Thanks for you patience, by the way, with all my stream of questions and constant return visits to your booth. :eek: :D
 
While I posted most of this elsewhere I thought I'd add it here as well since this is where it all started...

I was at Ron's in January to look at and play with LM1 and was impressed enough to buy a Model 6 that I got from him just last month. Don't know if I can add much to this discussion but here we go anyway...

Beryllium content - While I understand that Liquidmetal Tech is working on removing it from the matrix used in future LM versions the health issues are related more to exposure while grinding the material and not for the safety of the end-user. It is used in scalpel blades now and if the FDA and AMA will allow that then cutting your steak with it should be no problem. I have used my knife in the kitchen more than anywhere else so far and have been happy with its performance and don't "fear for my safety".

Folders - The problem is in the use of existing relatively "High RC" detent balls with relatively "low RC" LM1. I have NO experience here with LM1 in a folder but heard of this from a couple of makers. I must therefore assume the balls are wearing the blade material excessively. Can't say the detent ball problem surprises me but never thought of it when we were talking about LM1's uses. I originally thought that it would be a good option for folder blades but I guess we will have to wait and see. There is sure to be some "genius" out there who will find the answer to this problem should they choose to move forward with it. Using LM1 detent balls might be an answer but of course the question of how to get them made would come up. Ron indicated that lowering the tension on the lock has helped the problem. I wonder about the wear in the pivot pin area as well?

Giant Ass Logo - You bet your boots. The logo is (how should I put this?) "overpowering" for all but large blade use and even then a bit "distracting". I understand Liquidmetal Technologies desire to "Brand" the hell out of this stuff but they do need to "tone it down a bit". A little "less is more" design philosophy would do well here. Glad to hear that this has been worked out with Liquidmetal Technologies.

Use to date - Well I'll be honest here... Light use is all I have put it to so far and most of that has been food prep. I expect that as I get more comfortable with it I'll use it more and more. The LM1 Model 6 just works very well as GP knife in the kitchen and will be used as such on my next camping trip. The lack of mass is noticeable in both a good and bad way. You can use it very delicately and precisely but don't try to chop a hard wood tent peg with it or try to hack through a tree. Even with the larger Model 10, LM1 would not really be a good choice for this task unless some more weight could be added. (True this was using 1/8" stock and maybe would be better at 1/4" but "slicing ability" would tend to suffer.)

Edge holding - so far so good. Of course that might also be due to the fact that it is not being pushed too hard as a GP Food Prep knife. The edge stays sharp for a good long time and is easy to touch up when needed. Cuts meat very well. If you try to get too fancy with sharpening the edge can take on a "mirror polished" look and will slip too easily over what you are trying to cut. While this can happen with many knife steels it is very easy to do with LM1. I now always remember to go back and roughen up the edge a little. (I'm lazy and not the best sharpener so I use a 204 with Med, Fine, and Extra Fine stones. I always run over the finished edge with the Med. Stones to roughen it up a bit and gain some "bite" after reaching the edge I want.)

Ergo - The knife is nice and light. Moves very well in the hand. Ron puts them together with this great feeling handle and they just feel "smooth" in your hand. Very secure and comfortable.

Do I have any clue about what I wrote about? - No, but in the age of the Internet why should I let that stop me!
 
For which cutting tasks should i buy a blade with liqid metall?
On which task it performs better then a certain Steel? Will it substitute my razorblades as well the blades of machetes? And how is the stability of the edge provided with just HRC 50? Is liqid metal providig me with a microserration blade that will "cut" longer than the new high alloyed pm Steels?

Thank you!:D
 
Well, Way back on page 9 I posted a bunch of stuff from the "Cutting Party" at Ron's in January. Some of that may address some of your questions.

As to "microserration blade" I think that LM1 lacks the carbides needed for this but "shear banding" along the edge might account for the self-sharpening we noticed when the blade started to dull.

NO RUST would be one reason. Salt water, Sweat, Blood, whatever, just don't bother it. I have not exposed my blade to any harsh chemicals so I do not know what type of reactions might be expected. Maybe Ron has some info on this?

The edge on LM1 is better than Ti alloys at getting sharp and staying sharp. Much more durable. From the pictures on page 9 you can see that we did things to the Model 1 and 10 that you just should/could not do to a Ti blade without major damage.

I would think that existing Talonite, Stellite, Ti knife applications should be well suited to the LM1 option.

I'm not a Knife Expert...
But that does not stop me from playing one online!
 
LM1 seems best suited for high abrasive cutting (slicing). It seems to excell at tasks such as carboard and carpet slicing. While it can chop and maintain a lasting edge it is not ideal for the tast. This is mostly due to its wieght or lack thereof.

At this time I would venture that its ideal job is as a meduim duty EDC Utility. It is also ideal as a ultra light camp knife (you would want to back it up with either a machette or hatchet however). The Model 10 that Jeff is testing weights in at just 5.9 oz. This is great for long haul trekking where weight is an issue. But just as said before there are some trade offs.

If you were into high tech back packing it would be ideal. Considering you would have a micro stove (no wood chopping) and a ultra light tent (no shelter building) it is more than enough blade to do the job with merits. I would not suggest it as a primary chopping/cutting tool if you were into hard core survival camping. It would however make a fantastic back up small utility for lighter tasks.

In slicing it is comparing very well to S30V, for chopping I would compare it to an ATS-34.

Due to its amorphic structure it does not provide any natural micro serrations. These serrations are caused by the carbides in the structure. LM1 has no carbides. To get a micro serrated edge I suggest a rather coarse edge. I sharpen all my blades at 120 grit and leave them that way. After a little use you will get something similar to micro serrations from an effect called edge band shearing. This produces small cup like features along the cutting edge. It is the same edge that an obsidian knife has but on a microscopic level. This is the same feature that causes it to "self sharpen" during use.

The issue with the ball detent is that the ss ball is wearing into the blade material. Folks are saying that it is the low Rockwell of LM1 causing this, but that can not be the full answer. I say that because Talonite has a much lower Rockwell and has not been having the same problems. But like I said, I am looking into the issue and I already have a solution in mind to fix any potential problems.
 
My apologies if this has been asked and answered, but I didn't see it in my review of the 6 pages of this thread:

Where can I buy these knives on the Web? OK, assuming the $ don't put me in a coma or heart attack, will these pages also have more pictures, hopefully yes??

Mr. Clark, thanks for the reports on this new material. Sounds like it could be very useful used in the proper knife in the proper way.

Thanks,

Albin
 
They can currently be found at Arizona Custom Knives http://www.arizonacustomknives.com/displayArtist.asp?aID=269&name=Ron+Clark and Blade Art (though I think they are sold out).

Both Triple Aught Design and A.G.Russel will have them in stock soon.

There are also a few availible right here in the for sale by maker area. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=262020

The prices are not too bad. I have really been trying to keep them in the same range as other exotic blade materials.
 
Just read through the liquid metal postings for the first time , after that I need some liquid metal ,no I mean liquid refreshment. I,m glad to see that there is another metallurgist on the forum ,that makes at least 3. Also glad to see so many interested in metals and other materials. One of the problems we metallurgists and other techies have is that information is filtered through many people who are not technical and we end up with misinformation and confusion such as the comment - it's not really cast but more like MIM ???. There is also much hype in the world ( see cryo postings ) so we are justified in being , if not by nature, cynics. So do your standard knife tests , then get some out in the real world and we will see what LM blades are all about. BTW, I recently ordered an item from Sony and found the packing was not the typical foam plastic peanuts but little bags of of thin cardboard strips - do one of you knife makers work for Sony ?
 
The issue with the ball detent is that the ss ball is wearing into the blade material. Folks are saying that it is the low Rockwell of LM1 causing this, but that can not be the full answer. I say that because Talonite has a much lower Rockwell and has not been having the same problems. But like I said, I am looking into the issue and I already have a solution in mind to fix any potential problems.
Click to expand...

To explain why the ball detent is wearing into the lm1 but not talonite at about the same rockwell you have to remember what a rockwell hardness test measures.

A rockwell hardness test (c scale) basicly measures the volume of material displaced by the diamond indenter under a standard load.

Thus when it is used on a material with hard particles in a soft matrix (ie. talonite etc) a rockwell hardness test predominately measures the resistance of the soft matrix to indention; the hard carbides have little effect. These hard particles in the talonite are what gives it wear resistance. Of cource in lm1 the material is compleatly homogenious and the test simply measures the material's indention resistance.

So even though lm1 and talonite measure about the same RHc the hard carbides in the talonite allow it to have greater wear resistance.
 
Originally posted by R.W.Clark
So they still are trying to apply old testing standards to it. Of course when put LM1 in a machine designed to test steel it fails hands down.
Click to expand...
CATRA?
 
Roadrunner, thanks... I do already know what the Catra machine is, but that link is a good one for others interested in what a blade edge testing apparatus is and looks like. It in fact tests edge retention by cutting standardized stacks of silica (sand-like) impregnated paper. And it tests to a standard, ISO 8442.5:2003.

Actually, go to this link:
http://www.catra.org/servicesFrame.htm

And click on "Blade Sharpness & Edge Life Testing" (left column, down 3) to see the machine.

I was not very clear in my one word post (amazing, that)... I was attempting to ask RW Clark which machine he was referring to when he wrote:

Originally posted by R.W.Clark
So they still are trying to apply old testing standards to it. Of course when put LM1 in a machine designed to test steel it fails hands down.
Click to expand...

Could be a charpy tester, could be a Rockwell tester... could be a CATRA edge retention testing apparatus.

So I'll lob this thread BTTT and see if he answers.
 
Originally posted by R.W.Clark:
So they still are trying to apply old testing standards to it. Of course when put LM1 in a machine designed to test steel it fails hands down.
Click to expand...


Originally posted by rdangerer: Could be a charpy tester, could be a Rockwell tester... could be a CATRA edge retention testing apparatus.
Click to expand...

All of these tests with the exception of CATRA are reguarly applied to all common engineering metals. They are not in any way steel specific.
 
Yes it was CATRA that I was refering to.

One knife company has been doing alot of testing in their own in house testing lab. Basically they use a numbering system to rate materials. If the material falls within the number range, then they consider it worth while to investigate further. This testing includes CATRA. In a converastion with the company owner at Blade, he said that while on the low side, LM1 did fall within the numbers. It just did not provide the same high numbers as some of the super steels. Well thats really no surprise, I have been saying the same thing all along.

But my point has been that these tests are designed for conventional materials. Meaning non-amorphic materials, ie solid materials. LM1 is only the second amorpic material ever to be used in knives. The first was volcanic glass. Dispite what one formite would have you believe, there are huge differances between the performance charactoristics of solids and hyper-cooled liquids. Some measurements do seem to cross over with no problems. These would be things like shear strengh, tensile strengh, elastic measurements etc. These measurements are universal across all materials.

I just do not believe that the CATRA machine is the best measure of the performance of LM1. I base this on my comparisons in real world cutting. For instance, in CATRA LM1 scored just slightly lower than Talonite. But when put head to head with Talonite in actual cutting, LM1 out performed Talonite hands down.

Another problem that has been surfacing lately is one that we saw coming but had no practical answer for how to aviod. It is a simple matter of material handling. For instance, take S30V. It is a outstanding material for knives. I don't think anyone will argue that. But if the person doing the heat treating messes up (even just slightly) it can produce a blade that is a bad performer. The same is true with LM1. If the maker is not carefull during the grinding process he can totally wreck to material. This would make his knife a bad performer, though it has nothing to do with the material. There have been several makers who have reported that the material sucks and they will never use it again. Well, I have offered to have the atomic structure of the blades in question examined to find out what might be the cause of the problem. Every maker reporting poor results has either refused or just flat out ignored the offer. That brings a big question up in my mind. Do they know that they screwed up? If they know that they followed all of the handling guidelines for the material why not let it be photographed? After all we are just talking about a photo, nothing would be done to the knife what so ever.

I have also noticed another disturbing trend. I said from the very get go that LM1 was a horrible material to work with as far as the physical difficulty. I never have tried to hide that fact. Well I have been getting phone calls from makers saying that they will not be continuing to work with the material for this reason. OK cool, no problem. It is hard to work with. But some of these same makers are publicly saying that they will not use the material because it is a bad performer. So which is it? Why the change of story? So far only one maker has said both publically and privately that he will not be using the material because he does not like the way it works. I have my own personal thoughts on this and I will share them here.

I personally feel that some of the makers who do not want to work with the material are afraid of losing market share. So what do they do. They bash the material in hopes that it will stop the growing popularity. I could be way off base on this but it is just what I have been seeing.

On a brighter note. Jeff Randell is back from Peru, and I have gotten some feed back from him as to the LM1 Model 10. He is in the process of writting up a full review, so I will not go into too much detail here. But, overall he was VERY happy with the performance of the knife. The knife was used by all the members of the party as well as some of Peru's anti drug forces. He said that no one had reported any negatives about the knifes performance. The only aspect of the knife that he could not give me feed back on was how it was to sharpen. The simple reason he gave is that it was still sharp! Jeff, unlike another "reviewer" did stick within the design limits of the knife. It did do a little chopping, but as would be expected it was just to darn light to be any good at the job. The blade however was not damaged in any way. I am really looking forward to reading the full review. I am hoping that the review will be picked up by Blade (since they did break the news of LM1 to begin with).

I have had to drop the idea of LM1 as a folder material. After making up my own frame and liner lock folders, I have to agree with Kit. The detent wear problem is a real problem. If you make the liners heavy enough to be an effective lock then the wear is really bad. I was thinking of putting a high wear (maybe ceramic) insert into the detent track to fix the problem. But due to LM1s machining qualities, this solution is not really feasible. Doing so would push the cost of the knife so high that it just would not be worth doing. There are however new versions of LM that will soon be ready for testing. It is my hopes that one of these materials will be able to be used in folders. I do not think however that this will effect folders that are cast and have LM1 frames or liners. Since the detent is the same as the blade, the wear issues should be eliminated. This should also not effect other types of folders with differant lock setups. Can we say LM1 Stockman!:D.

Thats about all I have for now. There is another open house day in the works. Dates are still really vague. I will post more info when it becomes availible.
 
Thanks for the update Ron.

It is unfortunate that the detent wear issue remains. This issue might be negated by the options you presented but the volume commitment needed for them might delay a resolution. I have hope for the future iterations of this material.

I still have hope that this might make a great "maintenance free" Dive Knife that will beat the heck out of Beta-Ti in overall performance but we will need to wait to see if OceanMaster or some other big name (with enough volume) is willing to commit the $'s to setup a mold. I don't think it can compete price-wise unless the volume is higher than Custom Makers doing stock removal can support.

Your "If the maker is not carefull during the grinding process he can totally wreck to material." comment made me wonder if this is a reference to the material converting (in whole or in part) from it's Amorphous Structure State to a Crystalline Structure State? If I remember correctly this can occur with over heating and incorrect cooling.

BTW... I'm still using my Model 6 mostly for general kitchen duties and I'm very happy with its overall performance.
 
WTFOver, there is a major scuba company setting up molds as I type. They will be producing both fixed blades and folders. The price point should be under $100 IIRC.

Yes, the overheating problem has to due with crystalization of the material.

I just finished re-reading this entire thread. Wow, there is alot of info here. I have to laugh a little at myself. I knew so little about this material when this all started. How things change.
 
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