Liquid Metal is here! well at least some prototypes
- Thread starter R.W.Clark
- Start date
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,139
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2000
- Messages
- 537
I didn't have time to sitdown and write down everything yet and with the Super Bowl I doubt I will today. I have an old DigiCam and I don't take very good pictures. Plus I spent alot of time watching with my mouth open. Often it was Trace Rinaldi that would say "That would be a good picture" before I would stop to take one. I have to answer talyhoe's "BULL"
Paint Can: Notice the holes in the lid. Edge was fine and the tip had no problem punching hole after hole.
2"X4" hacking - One problem. LM1 is light and this Model 10 was made with only 1/8" stock and has a very pronounced distal taper that run the entire blade length. This is not the best choping set up. Blade does fine but needs more MASS for this type of task.
Cardboard Piles
Using the tip to dig into the 2"X4" and pry out wood
Tip Flex In A 2"X2"
Leg Bone and #10 same problem as with hacking at the 2X4, needs more MASS. The one very small chip in the edge was too small for me to get a shot of was the only damage.
The Steel Belted Tire I brought was not cut in two. The Model 10 did a great job slicing the side walls off but would not pass through the steel belts. Ron got pissed and wanted to see what was in there so we tried a hack saw. It cut in about an inch and a half and really dulled the heck out of the blade. Even before we took the Model 10 to the stones to re sharpen it would still slice through cardboard even though there was now no way you could call the blade sharp. It seemed to get a little sharper with each pass. Kind of self sharpening on the cardboard. Michael Sanchez had a better DigiCam with him and might be able to post better pictures. I was very happy with the product.
Lorne
Paint Can: Notice the holes in the lid. Edge was fine and the tip had no problem punching hole after hole.
2"X4" hacking - One problem. LM1 is light and this Model 10 was made with only 1/8" stock and has a very pronounced distal taper that run the entire blade length. This is not the best choping set up. Blade does fine but needs more MASS for this type of task.
Cardboard Piles
Using the tip to dig into the 2"X4" and pry out wood
Tip Flex In A 2"X2"
Leg Bone and #10 same problem as with hacking at the 2X4, needs more MASS. The one very small chip in the edge was too small for me to get a shot of was the only damage.
The Steel Belted Tire I brought was not cut in two. The Model 10 did a great job slicing the side walls off but would not pass through the steel belts. Ron got pissed and wanted to see what was in there so we tried a hack saw. It cut in about an inch and a half and really dulled the heck out of the blade. Even before we took the Model 10 to the stones to re sharpen it would still slice through cardboard even though there was now no way you could call the blade sharp. It seemed to get a little sharper with each pass. Kind of self sharpening on the cardboard. Michael Sanchez had a better DigiCam with him and might be able to post better pictures. I was very happy with the product.
Lorne
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2003
- Messages
- 3
I to don't have a lot of time to post since I'm at work, but Saturdays tests were impressive.
I will be the first to say if something sucks, but this is not the case with LM1. "BULL"? I don't think so, please test a product before you refute it. I chopped a 2x4 with this product and it performed as best as it could for what it is.
Let me explain a little bit. This material is not the something that will be the best in the business, it is what it is... material. According to the Reps it will not be available in thick stock, at the most, if memory serves me right, will be about 1/8. Any thicker and it will not cure (right term?) well, but will this be corected in the future... maybe. The Rockwell is only 51 with the possibility of future versions being somewhere in the mid 50s... to soft? Probably for most applications. Beryllium will be a big concern if custom makers want to use it, but that will be addressed before any product if offered. The blades we used showed a very unusual amount of heat retension in the localized area where friction occurred, and it did not dissipate very fast at all. It does not have the same kind of flexibility as a differentially heat treated knife does, but neither does Stainless.
Now that I have stated some of my concerns I will attempt to explain why I am exited about this material. It performed extremely well in all of the tests we tried. The tip did show any damage after punching throught the top of a paint can, but it did roll over after cutting the paint can in half. I would attribute this to the fact that Ron had put a 17 degree edge on it, but put that kind of edge on a high carbon blade and it will do the same thing (IMO). The interesting part was that it did not take much to straighten it back up on the ceramic sticks. A couple of us started having problems with cutting the cardboard, except for Ron, but again we attributed that to the edge geometry and when Ron reground the edge all of us were able to cut and cut and cut.... The tire was a bust; for whatever reason we could not get anything to cut it until Ron pulled out the hacksaw (whick dulled very fast too) and we realized the the steel belt was braided... oh well. The LM1 chopped just as well as any knife would with the amount of height it had, and we gave out before the blade did. Chopping the bone was not a problem and the only time I would have taken the blade back to the grinder for a new bevel was after the tire incident but it still came back enough after the Crock Sticks to cut Cardboard
My final test was whittling. Coming from a family of electrician I know how hard some professions can be on a knife so I asked Ron for some brass (being that I forgot mine ) and the LM1 had no problem. It cut just as well as the O1 and the AT34 and it very well when compared to Talonite.
That being said. I can see this material be used for quite a few different products as long as its limitation are kept in mind and taken into proper perspective. The same type of consideration you would take whenever you create a knife for a specific task. The user will need to be educated regarding the material and the precautions required for resharpening and reshaping.
Is this the future of Knifemaking.... no, but I think it can play a part in it. Just keep in mind that many of us would not be using AT24, 154cm, S30v or many of the modern materials if it wasn't for someone to take a step forward and testing these things out.
I want to thank Ron for taking the first step at looking at this.
And I want to say thanks to Gerry and Bob (reps for LM) for coming out and allowing me to hammer them with all my questions and skepticism, they answered my question with no Bu** **it or beating around the bush. They stated there understandings with very little words (I am a knifemaker you may or may not know)and did not attempt to sell me. I was given the impression that they were there to see what we could do with the product rather than them telling us how wonderful it is.
You people do not know me here so take this as it worth, but I was there, I did feel it, smell it, work with it, and abuse it. Is it the best, no. Will it be the future of knife making, it could play part in it. Did it surpass my expectations, yes. Does it need to be tested further, definitely. Will it be in production soon, no.
Just my opinions from using this material hands on.
My 2 cents worth.
Mike Sanchez
I will be the first to say if something sucks, but this is not the case with LM1. "BULL"? I don't think so, please test a product before you refute it. I chopped a 2x4 with this product and it performed as best as it could for what it is.
Let me explain a little bit. This material is not the something that will be the best in the business, it is what it is... material. According to the Reps it will not be available in thick stock, at the most, if memory serves me right, will be about 1/8. Any thicker and it will not cure (right term?) well, but will this be corected in the future... maybe. The Rockwell is only 51 with the possibility of future versions being somewhere in the mid 50s... to soft? Probably for most applications. Beryllium will be a big concern if custom makers want to use it, but that will be addressed before any product if offered. The blades we used showed a very unusual amount of heat retension in the localized area where friction occurred, and it did not dissipate very fast at all. It does not have the same kind of flexibility as a differentially heat treated knife does, but neither does Stainless.
Now that I have stated some of my concerns I will attempt to explain why I am exited about this material. It performed extremely well in all of the tests we tried. The tip did show any damage after punching throught the top of a paint can, but it did roll over after cutting the paint can in half. I would attribute this to the fact that Ron had put a 17 degree edge on it, but put that kind of edge on a high carbon blade and it will do the same thing (IMO). The interesting part was that it did not take much to straighten it back up on the ceramic sticks. A couple of us started having problems with cutting the cardboard, except for Ron, but again we attributed that to the edge geometry and when Ron reground the edge all of us were able to cut and cut and cut.... The tire was a bust; for whatever reason we could not get anything to cut it until Ron pulled out the hacksaw (whick dulled very fast too) and we realized the the steel belt was braided... oh well. The LM1 chopped just as well as any knife would with the amount of height it had, and we gave out before the blade did. Chopping the bone was not a problem and the only time I would have taken the blade back to the grinder for a new bevel was after the tire incident but it still came back enough after the Crock Sticks to cut Cardboard
My final test was whittling. Coming from a family of electrician I know how hard some professions can be on a knife so I asked Ron for some brass (being that I forgot mine
) and the LM1 had no problem. It cut just as well as the O1 and the AT34 and it very well when compared to Talonite.That being said. I can see this material be used for quite a few different products as long as its limitation are kept in mind and taken into proper perspective. The same type of consideration you would take whenever you create a knife for a specific task. The user will need to be educated regarding the material and the precautions required for resharpening and reshaping.
Is this the future of Knifemaking.... no, but I think it can play a part in it. Just keep in mind that many of us would not be using AT24, 154cm, S30v or many of the modern materials if it wasn't for someone to take a step forward and testing these things out.
I want to thank Ron for taking the first step at looking at this.
And I want to say thanks to Gerry and Bob (reps for LM) for coming out and allowing me to hammer them with all my questions and skepticism, they answered my question with no Bu** **it or beating around the bush. They stated there understandings with very little words (I am a knifemaker you may or may not know)and did not attempt to sell me. I was given the impression that they were there to see what we could do with the product rather than them telling us how wonderful it is.
You people do not know me here so take this as it worth, but I was there, I did feel it, smell it, work with it, and abuse it. Is it the best, no. Will it be the future of knife making, it could play part in it. Did it surpass my expectations, yes. Does it need to be tested further, definitely. Will it be in production soon, no.
Just my opinions from using this material hands on.
My 2 cents worth.
Mike Sanchez
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2000
- Messages
- 537
OK, where to start? Ive never tried to write a review so Im sorry if I run on or dont cover all the high points.
There were only the four of us:
Ron Clark - R.W. Clark Custom Knives
Michael Sanchez Custom Knives and Leather
Trace Rinaldi - Trace Rinaldi Custom Blades
I was very surprised at the low turnout as I thought that more people would be interested in getting a firsthand look at this stuff.
2 from LIQUIDMETAL TECHNOLOGIES:
Gerald Croopnick Director of Research and Development
Bob Dinunzio Sports/Leisure Product Development
The guys from LMT brought some of the Proto blades Ron had made, a DVD of the movie from their web site on the product and they also brought a golf club head that was fresh from the mold.
They were very open to questions and seem ready and willing to fully support the use of their material by Qualified (Trained in the handling of the material) Knife Makers. I was very impressed with the quality of the unfinished club head. The club face came from the mold with a highly polished appearance. I almost thought that it had been chromed. While it was possibly to see waves in the finish, it looked like it would not take much to polish them out. Also, there was quite a bit a detail on the face, rear, and shaft attachment leading me to believe that Near Net Fabrication through the molding process was very possible.
As Sal indicated in an earlier post, casting is not the best description of the process. It is done in a vacuum, oxygen free environment. Metal Injection Molding is probably a more correct term and the reason that we wont see production manufactures casting their own blades in house should a Production Maker choose to use this material. The material must be cooled VERY rapidly to avoid the creation of crystalline structures. This appears to be the one issue that limits the thickness of the available Plate Stock currently. If the core cools too slowly the material looses its amorphous solid state and will create crystalline structures.
We were using 2 of Rons standard knives, a Model 1 (6 1/8" overall length with a 2 3/4" flat ground blade) and a Model 10 (9 3/4" overall length with a 5" flat ground blade) both made with 1/8 LM1 stock. The Model 10 got the most use. Ron had told us up front that we were Not setting out to destroy the knives. I tended to baby the blades afraid to be the one to bust it but Ron was very aggressive with it.
We started by popping the tip on the #10 through the lid of a paint can several times. The tip remained in good form and the edge showed no damage. Ron then cut the paint can in half and while the edge dulled a bit it still had a serviceable edge. After a few passes on the Crock Sticks it was ready to go.
We moved on to chopping through a 2 X 4. Here we found that due to limits on the thickness of the stock, pronounced distal taper, and the low weight of LM1. while it is something you can do, it might not be something you would want to do. Chopping needs some MASS behind it and the knife was not well suited to the task. Ron was the most aggressive on this and refused to stop until he had gone clean through the 2 X 4. We hacked away at it for a while and then went on to cardboard slicing. After we would get enough of that and take a break Ron would go back to hacking at that 2 X 4 again. (he did get all the way through)
We sliced a bunch of cardboard boxes against the corrugations and the knives performed well. While Ron was ripping right through the cardboard right away Michael and I had a little trouble at first finding the "sweet spot". Once we found it the knives cut well for us. 3 items of interest showed up while doing this.
1) Heat. The blades had a bead blasted finish and the friction against the cardboard would generate some heat. The heat would be VERY localized to the area doing the cutting and the rest of the blade would be cool to the touch. It looks like heat conductivity is not very high and this might be one of the problems with getting the needed rapid cooling of the core in place stock greater than 5 millimeters thick. Michael wondered if it was amplifying the heat or just retaining it in a very local spot. He put a piece of LM1 plate out in the sun (it was a sunny and warm day) to see how hot it would get. After a while we checked it and found that it was warm but not overly so.
2) Edge retention. The blade would start to dull and you could feel it slowing in the cardboard and then it would start to get better. We talked about this for a bit and Trace offered that he had noticed this before and we wondered if we were seeing shear banding on a microscopic level self sharpening the blade. In this material Gerald Croopnick had told us that we would see shear banding result in 45 degree breaks along the stress boundaries at a microscopic level. So Traces thought made sense Or we were fooling ourselves.
3) Edge angle and cutting angle. The blades seemed to work best when presenting a 60 to 70 degree approach to the cardboard, almost a miter cut. Not sure why. Also there will need to be a lot more work on determining optimal edge geometry. Slight differences made large performance changes. One thing that stood out was that if you sharpened the blade with a very fine belt you would get a great super sharp edge. Push cuts would be great and the edge would be mirror finished. However, with this material you could not perform a slicing cut. The edge would slide over the material with out grabbing and biting in. We talked a bit about this and came to the guess that the lack of carbides formed in the material would lead to the edge not getting the little micro-serrations we all know and love. This would allow the finely honed edge to be very slick and not able to bite. If the edge is left toothier it cuts and slices quite well. As there is no heat treatment to worry about getting right more time can be spent finding the correct edge angle and finish to get a nice sharp and toothy mixture that will perform as needed.
Michaels brass whittling test was interesting in that the LM1 performed much better then I would have expected, the edge rolled but continued to function. I expected chips but none were noticed. A few swipes on the Crock Sticks and it was almost as good as new. A little more than a minute of work put the edge back into user condition.
Ron just seemed to love digging the tip into the wood and prying out chunks of wood. I was talking to Michael and Trace and watching him out of the corner of my eye. Every time the tip would pop free of the wood it would Ping. I kept waiting for the tip stay stuck in the wood or to shoot across the room but it never happened. He just kept stabbing it in and prying at the wood. He then would stab the tip in and bend back on the handle. He was able to get quite a bit of flex but the blade always returned to true. While we didnt flex a blade to failure, Ron had and both he and the guys from LMT indicated that failure was a clean snap without fragments. Also the ends of the fracture were clean in that there was no deformation and the pieces could be fit back together like a puzzle. For a material that I expected to be brittle this is not what I expected. I thought of glass shattering. I was expecting shrapnel to be flying What a let down!
Ron had a chunk of cow leg bone that we chopped at a bit. The biggest problem once again was the lack of weight. Chips of bone fly quite a bit. The blade did put some good notches in the bone and while the edge rolled over there was only one VERY small chip in the edge. Once again a few passes on the Crock Sticks and we had a usable edge again.
The tire was a bust in that while we easily removed the sidewalls there was no way the blade would pass through the steel belts. We sawed away at it and got nowhere. The edge was rolled badly. Ron and I tried to use a hacksaw to get through it and gave up after an inch or so, the hacksaw blade was toast. Ron started to take the knife to the Crock Sticks but after 2 passes Trace made him stop and try cutting cardboard. After a few passes the edge seemed to get better (read better not good) it was still not anywhere near sharp but it would cut.
So overall I was very happy with the material. Not a single major edge failure and all minor deformations were easily repaired with no more then a bit of time on the Crock Sticks. Even the bead blasted finish held up well. I was expecting major chipping and fractures in the blades after the types of use that they were subjected too no go on that. I kept seeing obsidian blades shattering when used incorrectly or impacting hard objects just didnt happen.
While it will not be the magic knife steel that replaces all others, it will have a place and there will be uses for it. The guys from LMT indicated that LM1 is only the first product to be made available and they will continue to develop new formulas that will also be made available for Knife Makers to experiment with. The Beryllium issue was discussed and they are looking for ways to reduce the content in future LM versions. They also can mitigate its impact by using Near Net Fabrication via Metal Injection Molding to limit exposure by greatly reducing machining.
I could easily see a marine environment production knife being created using this material. A hawk billed, serrated, fixed or folding bladed knife might be perfect. I would at first have thought that serrations would not be possible with this material; however after seeing the way the tip held up I now think that serrations would be no problem and might actually help avoid the problem of the knife getting too polished an edge and sliding off the material you intended to cut.
This material did exceed my expectations but has its limits just as all knife steels do. It would be best to think of it as a special purpose material for blades that need its special characteristics and not as the next super-steel that all knives MUST be made from. Ive used beta titanium dive blades and this is vastly superior in edge retention and durability. Much has been said about its relatively low RC but that is not the only factor that should be looked at. The material is a capable performer at that level.
Thanks Ron for letting us trash your shop. Thanks Trace and Michael for your help. Michael had a really cool mini-fixed blade he had made with him that you could take anywhere and never hear a peep from anyone no matter how knife unfriendly they might be. As for Trace I had seen pictures of his work in the past and thought they looked good but this was the first time I got to handle any of them and now I know I dont want I NEED a Matrix.
There were only the four of us:
Ron Clark - R.W. Clark Custom Knives
Michael Sanchez Custom Knives and Leather
Trace Rinaldi - Trace Rinaldi Custom Blades
I was very surprised at the low turnout as I thought that more people would be interested in getting a firsthand look at this stuff.
2 from LIQUIDMETAL TECHNOLOGIES:
Gerald Croopnick Director of Research and Development
Bob Dinunzio Sports/Leisure Product Development
The guys from LMT brought some of the Proto blades Ron had made, a DVD of the movie from their web site on the product and they also brought a golf club head that was fresh from the mold.
They were very open to questions and seem ready and willing to fully support the use of their material by Qualified (Trained in the handling of the material) Knife Makers. I was very impressed with the quality of the unfinished club head. The club face came from the mold with a highly polished appearance. I almost thought that it had been chromed. While it was possibly to see waves in the finish, it looked like it would not take much to polish them out. Also, there was quite a bit a detail on the face, rear, and shaft attachment leading me to believe that Near Net Fabrication through the molding process was very possible.
As Sal indicated in an earlier post, casting is not the best description of the process. It is done in a vacuum, oxygen free environment. Metal Injection Molding is probably a more correct term and the reason that we wont see production manufactures casting their own blades in house should a Production Maker choose to use this material. The material must be cooled VERY rapidly to avoid the creation of crystalline structures. This appears to be the one issue that limits the thickness of the available Plate Stock currently. If the core cools too slowly the material looses its amorphous solid state and will create crystalline structures.
We were using 2 of Rons standard knives, a Model 1 (6 1/8" overall length with a 2 3/4" flat ground blade) and a Model 10 (9 3/4" overall length with a 5" flat ground blade) both made with 1/8 LM1 stock. The Model 10 got the most use. Ron had told us up front that we were Not setting out to destroy the knives. I tended to baby the blades afraid to be the one to bust it but Ron was very aggressive with it.
We started by popping the tip on the #10 through the lid of a paint can several times. The tip remained in good form and the edge showed no damage. Ron then cut the paint can in half and while the edge dulled a bit it still had a serviceable edge. After a few passes on the Crock Sticks it was ready to go.
We moved on to chopping through a 2 X 4. Here we found that due to limits on the thickness of the stock, pronounced distal taper, and the low weight of LM1. while it is something you can do, it might not be something you would want to do. Chopping needs some MASS behind it and the knife was not well suited to the task. Ron was the most aggressive on this and refused to stop until he had gone clean through the 2 X 4. We hacked away at it for a while and then went on to cardboard slicing. After we would get enough of that and take a break Ron would go back to hacking at that 2 X 4 again. (he did get all the way through)
We sliced a bunch of cardboard boxes against the corrugations and the knives performed well. While Ron was ripping right through the cardboard right away Michael and I had a little trouble at first finding the "sweet spot". Once we found it the knives cut well for us. 3 items of interest showed up while doing this.
1) Heat. The blades had a bead blasted finish and the friction against the cardboard would generate some heat. The heat would be VERY localized to the area doing the cutting and the rest of the blade would be cool to the touch. It looks like heat conductivity is not very high and this might be one of the problems with getting the needed rapid cooling of the core in place stock greater than 5 millimeters thick. Michael wondered if it was amplifying the heat or just retaining it in a very local spot. He put a piece of LM1 plate out in the sun (it was a sunny and warm day) to see how hot it would get. After a while we checked it and found that it was warm but not overly so.
2) Edge retention. The blade would start to dull and you could feel it slowing in the cardboard and then it would start to get better. We talked about this for a bit and Trace offered that he had noticed this before and we wondered if we were seeing shear banding on a microscopic level self sharpening the blade. In this material Gerald Croopnick had told us that we would see shear banding result in 45 degree breaks along the stress boundaries at a microscopic level. So Traces thought made sense Or we were fooling ourselves.
3) Edge angle and cutting angle. The blades seemed to work best when presenting a 60 to 70 degree approach to the cardboard, almost a miter cut. Not sure why. Also there will need to be a lot more work on determining optimal edge geometry. Slight differences made large performance changes. One thing that stood out was that if you sharpened the blade with a very fine belt you would get a great super sharp edge. Push cuts would be great and the edge would be mirror finished. However, with this material you could not perform a slicing cut. The edge would slide over the material with out grabbing and biting in. We talked a bit about this and came to the guess that the lack of carbides formed in the material would lead to the edge not getting the little micro-serrations we all know and love. This would allow the finely honed edge to be very slick and not able to bite. If the edge is left toothier it cuts and slices quite well. As there is no heat treatment to worry about getting right more time can be spent finding the correct edge angle and finish to get a nice sharp and toothy mixture that will perform as needed.
Michaels brass whittling test was interesting in that the LM1 performed much better then I would have expected, the edge rolled but continued to function. I expected chips but none were noticed. A few swipes on the Crock Sticks and it was almost as good as new. A little more than a minute of work put the edge back into user condition.
Ron just seemed to love digging the tip into the wood and prying out chunks of wood. I was talking to Michael and Trace and watching him out of the corner of my eye. Every time the tip would pop free of the wood it would Ping. I kept waiting for the tip stay stuck in the wood or to shoot across the room but it never happened. He just kept stabbing it in and prying at the wood. He then would stab the tip in and bend back on the handle. He was able to get quite a bit of flex but the blade always returned to true. While we didnt flex a blade to failure, Ron had and both he and the guys from LMT indicated that failure was a clean snap without fragments. Also the ends of the fracture were clean in that there was no deformation and the pieces could be fit back together like a puzzle. For a material that I expected to be brittle this is not what I expected. I thought of glass shattering. I was expecting shrapnel to be flying What a let down!
Ron had a chunk of cow leg bone that we chopped at a bit. The biggest problem once again was the lack of weight. Chips of bone fly quite a bit. The blade did put some good notches in the bone and while the edge rolled over there was only one VERY small chip in the edge. Once again a few passes on the Crock Sticks and we had a usable edge again.
The tire was a bust in that while we easily removed the sidewalls there was no way the blade would pass through the steel belts. We sawed away at it and got nowhere. The edge was rolled badly. Ron and I tried to use a hacksaw to get through it and gave up after an inch or so, the hacksaw blade was toast. Ron started to take the knife to the Crock Sticks but after 2 passes Trace made him stop and try cutting cardboard. After a few passes the edge seemed to get better (read better not good) it was still not anywhere near sharp but it would cut.
So overall I was very happy with the material. Not a single major edge failure and all minor deformations were easily repaired with no more then a bit of time on the Crock Sticks. Even the bead blasted finish held up well. I was expecting major chipping and fractures in the blades after the types of use that they were subjected too no go on that. I kept seeing obsidian blades shattering when used incorrectly or impacting hard objects just didnt happen.
While it will not be the magic knife steel that replaces all others, it will have a place and there will be uses for it. The guys from LMT indicated that LM1 is only the first product to be made available and they will continue to develop new formulas that will also be made available for Knife Makers to experiment with. The Beryllium issue was discussed and they are looking for ways to reduce the content in future LM versions. They also can mitigate its impact by using Near Net Fabrication via Metal Injection Molding to limit exposure by greatly reducing machining.
I could easily see a marine environment production knife being created using this material. A hawk billed, serrated, fixed or folding bladed knife might be perfect. I would at first have thought that serrations would not be possible with this material; however after seeing the way the tip held up I now think that serrations would be no problem and might actually help avoid the problem of the knife getting too polished an edge and sliding off the material you intended to cut.
This material did exceed my expectations but has its limits just as all knife steels do. It would be best to think of it as a special purpose material for blades that need its special characteristics and not as the next super-steel that all knives MUST be made from. Ive used beta titanium dive blades and this is vastly superior in edge retention and durability. Much has been said about its relatively low RC but that is not the only factor that should be looked at. The material is a capable performer at that level.
Thanks Ron for letting us trash your shop. Thanks Trace and Michael for your help. Michael had a really cool mini-fixed blade he had made with him that you could take anywhere and never hear a peep from anyone no matter how knife unfriendly they might be. As for Trace I had seen pictures of his work in the past and thought they looked good but this was the first time I got to handle any of them and now I know I dont want I NEED a Matrix.
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,139
I've been thinking of where this material would have interesting applications in the knife world, and had two ideas related to the "injection moldability" of LiquidMetal. I am probably revealing more of my own ignorance about how cutting surfaces actually work than coming up with good ideas, so please bear with me.
1) Serrations
I'm assuming that serrations basically work for the same reason that you put a belly on the blade - to increase the length of the cutting surface being applied along a slicing line. I'm also assuming that serrations are a pain to put onto a blade.
With LiquidMetal, I would think that you could put serrations on top of serrations on top of serrations (or conversely you could think of starting with a 1 micron cutting feature and then building up triangles of higher order features).
Does anyone understand the physics of serrations well enough to say what the optimal serration (fractal serration?) would look like?
2) Non-solid blades
I assume that blades suffer from the same weight/strength/stiffness trade-offs that other mechanical structures do (e.g. cars), except that it is cost-prohibitive to use forging or stock removal to do much other than fullers or punch-outs. With something like injection-molded LiquidMetal, I'd think you would be able to build a much more complex monoque structure that would be almost as strong but enormously lighter than a conventional solid blade. Plus it would be really cool if you could look into the back of an axe head or bowie and see a spider-web of supporting structure rather than a solid blade.
In both cases, creating the mold would be a pain, but the pain would presumably be amortized over a large number of blades.
1) Serrations
I'm assuming that serrations basically work for the same reason that you put a belly on the blade - to increase the length of the cutting surface being applied along a slicing line. I'm also assuming that serrations are a pain to put onto a blade.
With LiquidMetal, I would think that you could put serrations on top of serrations on top of serrations (or conversely you could think of starting with a 1 micron cutting feature and then building up triangles of higher order features).
Does anyone understand the physics of serrations well enough to say what the optimal serration (fractal serration?) would look like?
2) Non-solid blades
I assume that blades suffer from the same weight/strength/stiffness trade-offs that other mechanical structures do (e.g. cars), except that it is cost-prohibitive to use forging or stock removal to do much other than fullers or punch-outs. With something like injection-molded LiquidMetal, I'd think you would be able to build a much more complex monoque structure that would be almost as strong but enormously lighter than a conventional solid blade. Plus it would be really cool if you could look into the back of an axe head or bowie and see a spider-web of supporting structure rather than a solid blade.
In both cases, creating the mold would be a pain, but the pain would presumably be amortized over a large number of blades.
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2000
- Messages
- 537
gaben,
As to the serrations, while the club head showed a lot of detail it didn't look fine enough to do what you are talking about. Also I don't think it would be possible for the enduser to maintain that type of edge. Now if you look at the serrations like Spyderco uses it might be possible to reproduce them in the mold.
As to your second issue... while not being qualified didn't stop me from addressing your first issue... I do grasp that this one is out of my depth.
As to the serrations, while the club head showed a lot of detail it didn't look fine enough to do what you are talking about. Also I don't think it would be possible for the enduser to maintain that type of edge. Now if you look at the serrations like Spyderco uses it might be possible to reproduce them in the mold.
As to your second issue... while not being qualified didn't stop me from addressing your first issue... I do grasp that this one is out of my depth.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2002
- Messages
- 790
Thanks guys, for taking the time to write those long reviews. I wish I could have been there, but family obligations kept me occupied most of the weekend.
Hey, can we get those LMT guys to post here?
Hey, can we get those LMT guys to post here?
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2001
- Messages
- 18,959
All involved with this project to date...thank you ever so much for the informative read! Nicely done guys, thanks!
This sounds like some pretty amazing stuff, this liquid metal, and we look forward to handling it at the Knife Expo show in February!
Sheldon and Edna
This sounds like some pretty amazing stuff, this liquid metal, and we look forward to handling it at the Knife Expo show in February!
Sheldon and Edna
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 1,774
I had fun, even with the low turnout.. It was great talking to you guys, and watching Ron the human carboard shredder in action again..
I think the way the tip holds up is just unreal on this stuff, I have seen ATS blades snap right off at the tip with much less abuse.... Once we experiment with different edge thicknesses, and geometries, we should have a real good performer in this stuff..
I think the way the tip holds up is just unreal on this stuff, I have seen ATS blades snap right off at the tip with much less abuse.... Once we experiment with different edge thicknesses, and geometries, we should have a real good performer in this stuff..
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2003
- Messages
- 3
On reflection there are a few more points I want to make.
First, the ability to complete a knife in a short amount of time is very possible with this material. Remember, it is at 51 in its solid state. This means no need for heat treating or clean up after HT. All you need to do is take this from Plate/Molded Product to finish.
That being said, the same precautions need to be taken as with a preheat treated blade. When grinding this material you need to make sure that the your don't rise above a certain temperature, not remembering what the exact number is I will not guess. But grinding bare handed will allow you stay well below that temperature, while keeping safety in mind.
If you guys have more questions let them fly, I'm sure all of us that were there will be more than happy to voice (type) what we experienced.
Mike
First, the ability to complete a knife in a short amount of time is very possible with this material. Remember, it is at 51 in its solid state. This means no need for heat treating or clean up after HT. All you need to do is take this from Plate/Molded Product to finish.
That being said, the same precautions need to be taken as with a preheat treated blade. When grinding this material you need to make sure that the your don't rise above a certain temperature, not remembering what the exact number is I will not guess. But grinding bare handed will allow you stay well below that temperature, while keeping safety in mind.
If you guys have more questions let them fly, I'm sure all of us that were there will be more than happy to voice (type) what we experienced.
Mike
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,139
This is a follow-up to an earlier post I made about the ceramic/carbon nanotube announcement. Dr. Kuntz is one of the researchers involved in the project. It doesn't look like we'll get much near term information about this new composite, but I did point him to this thread and gave him some excerpts from the recent posts about the LM Cutathon 2003 at R. W.'s place.
-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua D. Kuntz [mailto:jdkuntz@ucdavis.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 9:27 AM
To: Gabe Newell
Subject: RE: Carbon nanotubes and ceramic toughness
Gabe,
Sorry about not responding earlier. I had forwarded the message on to my advising professor and thought he would reply to you. We are currently in the patent application process so I am not a full liberty to discuss application related details with you. Off the top of my head, I can see our composite making a good high-end knife blade but I think that we still have a ways to go to be viable as an axe head. If it is alright with you I will give your name to the licensing department as an interested party.
By the way, everything I have heard about metallic glass has included that the material is very brittle at room temperature. How far along is metallic glass in development?
Regards,
Joshua
Joshua D. Kuntz
jdkuntz@ucdavis.edu
530-752-6290
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gabe Newell
>Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 11:30 PM
>To: 'jdkuntz@ucdavis.edu'
>Subject: Carbon nanotubes and ceramic toughness
>
>
>Dr. Kuntz,
>
>Congratulations on publication of your article on the use of carbon
>nanotubes to increase the toughness of ceramics.
>
>I am curious if you have a sense of how long it will take for prototypes for
>commercialization of this process to appear?
>
>There's a strong tradition within the high-end custom knife and axe makers
>of experimentation with new materials. For example, R. W. Campell, the
>President of the California Knife Makers Association, is currently working
>with Cal Tech and Liquidmetal Technologies to explore the utility of bulk
>metallic glasses in a number of applications. There have been plenty of
>people who have tried out a variety of steels, chromium-cobalt alloys, and,
>of course, ceramics.
>
>While companies like Kyocera have introduced consumer products incorporating
>ceramic blades and have manufactured ceramics for third parties like Boker,
>they have had a reputation for fragility that has hampered their wider
>acceptance in both the custom and production cutlery fields.
>
>As a newbie materials geek, I'm curious as to your thoughts, and would love
>to distribute your comments to a wider audience among the manufacturers.
>
>Gabe Newell
-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua D. Kuntz [mailto:jdkuntz@ucdavis.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 9:27 AM
To: Gabe Newell
Subject: RE: Carbon nanotubes and ceramic toughness
Gabe,
Sorry about not responding earlier. I had forwarded the message on to my advising professor and thought he would reply to you. We are currently in the patent application process so I am not a full liberty to discuss application related details with you. Off the top of my head, I can see our composite making a good high-end knife blade but I think that we still have a ways to go to be viable as an axe head. If it is alright with you I will give your name to the licensing department as an interested party.
By the way, everything I have heard about metallic glass has included that the material is very brittle at room temperature. How far along is metallic glass in development?
Regards,
Joshua
Joshua D. Kuntz
jdkuntz@ucdavis.edu
530-752-6290
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gabe Newell
>Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 11:30 PM
>To: 'jdkuntz@ucdavis.edu'
>Subject: Carbon nanotubes and ceramic toughness
>
>
>Dr. Kuntz,
>
>Congratulations on publication of your article on the use of carbon
>nanotubes to increase the toughness of ceramics.
>
>I am curious if you have a sense of how long it will take for prototypes for
>commercialization of this process to appear?
>
>There's a strong tradition within the high-end custom knife and axe makers
>of experimentation with new materials. For example, R. W. Campell, the
>President of the California Knife Makers Association, is currently working
>with Cal Tech and Liquidmetal Technologies to explore the utility of bulk
>metallic glasses in a number of applications. There have been plenty of
>people who have tried out a variety of steels, chromium-cobalt alloys, and,
>of course, ceramics.
>
>While companies like Kyocera have introduced consumer products incorporating
>ceramic blades and have manufactured ceramics for third parties like Boker,
>they have had a reputation for fragility that has hampered their wider
>acceptance in both the custom and production cutlery fields.
>
>As a newbie materials geek, I'm curious as to your thoughts, and would love
>to distribute your comments to a wider audience among the manufacturers.
>
>Gabe Newell
Paging Mr. Ron Clark...
Mr. Clark, I have not had much luck reaching you via email and phone so I hope you'll see this message. I can be reached at pylee@um-jmh.org, or at 305-585-7284. It's concerning the Model 1 with ebony handles that I bought from you on Jan 14. I still haven't received it yet, so I would appreciate a tracking number of some sort to trace it. Thanks.
Mr. Clark, I have not had much luck reaching you via email and phone so I hope you'll see this message. I can be reached at pylee@um-jmh.org, or at 305-585-7284. It's concerning the Model 1 with ebony handles that I bought from you on Jan 14. I still haven't received it yet, so I would appreciate a tracking number of some sort to trace it. Thanks.
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2000
- Messages
- 537
Originally posted by R.W.Clark
Other than that, I might have some up dated news after a board meeting that I have been requested to attend on Tuesday. This will be the first time that I have ever been requested to attend a meeting at LMT! Hope they don't want suit and tie
R.W., did you need a suit and tie and do you have any news to pass on? Or will OpSec keep you from posting it.
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2001
- Messages
- 1,742
I think everyone is holding their breath.
No suit, just jeans and a polo. Man, they got a NICE set up over there. Big comfy leather chairs, my favorite. The meeting was moved to Monday so I was a little caught off guard.
There is alot going on but it would be premature to talk about anything right now. There is quite a bit of production interest in the stuff. My answering machine reads like a whos who of knifemaking. Makes me scared to check my messages (remember that this is all pretty new to me). Jerry and Bob are going to be meeting with several production companies at the SHOT show. No telling what might come of that.
It is only three weeks until the first knives hit the open market. I am busting my rear to try and get a ample supply of LM1 and S30V blades ready for the show.
I am having a buddy of mine in the FX world make up some really cool display stands for the show. Just think T2 and you will get a good idea of what they will look like.
Thats about all for now. I think that my grinder and tapping head are trying to form a union to cut down their hours.
.No suit, just jeans and a polo. Man, they got a NICE set up over there. Big comfy leather chairs, my favorite. The meeting was moved to Monday so I was a little caught off guard.
There is alot going on but it would be premature to talk about anything right now. There is quite a bit of production interest in the stuff. My answering machine reads like a whos who of knifemaking. Makes me scared to check my messages (remember that this is all pretty new to me). Jerry and Bob are going to be meeting with several production companies at the SHOT show. No telling what might come of that.
It is only three weeks until the first knives hit the open market. I am busting my rear to try and get a ample supply of LM1 and S30V blades ready for the show.
I am having a buddy of mine in the FX world make up some really cool display stands for the show. Just think T2 and you will get a good idea of what they will look like.
Thats about all for now. I think that my grinder and tapping head are trying to form a union to cut down their hours
.- Joined
- Jan 27, 2003
- Messages
- 3
Hey Ron,
give me a call I need to talk to about some of the things we discussed at the test.
626-233-8155
Mike
give me a call I need to talk to about some of the things we discussed at the test.
626-233-8155
Mike
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,139
I just noticed over in this forum thread:
Shot Show time is coming!!!
that one of the people from Liquidmetal Technologies posted a message. His contact information is:
Robert J. DiNunzio
Liquidmetal Technologies
Lake Forest, Ca. 92630
949 206 8051
Is this the first time any of them have posted?
Shot Show time is coming!!!
that one of the people from Liquidmetal Technologies posted a message. His contact information is:
Robert J. DiNunzio
Liquidmetal Technologies
Lake Forest, Ca. 92630
949 206 8051
Is this the first time any of them have posted?