"Made in Sheffield" 1830-1930, A golden age ?

[waynorth]

Coffee pruners from the 1894 catalogue.

Can you name that catalogue for me, please??

 

[waynorth]

What a great find Ed!!! I've got a similar one myself!!View attachment 2559217

Interestingly, my tobacco Pruner came from someone in Port Stanley, Ontario, which area became Canada's "Tobacco belt" when the "Empire Loyalists" moved their tobacco interests from the southern parts of America after the revolution of independence from Britain!! The growing conditions were right for tobacco!!
I suspect that knife was shipped from Sheffield, across the Atlantic, and up the St.Lawrence to Port Stanley!!

 

[ed_is_dead]

What a great find Ed!!! I've got a similar one myself!!View attachment 2559217

I was aware of yours from having seen it yrs back, it being more desirable again as a folder. Can you kindly post a pic of it closed?

Took me some time to find who it was who posted that but I did remember it was described as a tobacco knife iirc which helped me find yours.

Like yourself I thought mine was of an earlier era.
The catalogue pic was from the "Rogers 1894 Catalogue" as supplied by Bernard Levine.

To answer Will Power , Bernard was pretty certain that despite the obvious aged aesthetic it was "self consciously old fashioned".
So what I understand from this that is perhaps Rogers were doing a retrospective look back at their golden days? Like a spyderco sprint run of an early heritage line if you get me?
Also the manner in which the typesetting of the block making for the text was done in a more modern format, by machine.
He mentioned scratted bone was also in use up to WW1 on certain utility lines.

Personally I'd have bet the farm it wasnt GV but unless somone knows better I've no reason to doubt him, he's forgotten more than I know about this.

One final addendum, he questioned if it was actually shear steel.
I have several examples of real shear steel and all have a under close inspection a stacked almost laminate appearance. My Gregory Bros and Petty knives have this. The above does have this too so I'm satisfied it is shear. I'd know for certain by the edge it takes and holds but am slow to press this one into use.

Thanks a mill for the link, shear, double and even triple shear steel is one of my areas of special interest

 

[ed_is_dead]

One for Steve

 

[waynorth]

Can you kindly post a pic of it closed?

Here you are, Ed!!!
4 3/4" long, and the Rattail bolster is small, but not intergral!!

 

[herder]

I was aware of yours from having seen it yrs back, it being more desirable again as a folder. Can you kindly post a pic of it closed?

Took me some time to find who it was who posted that but I did remember it was described as a tobacco knife iirc which helped me find yours.

Like yourself I thought mine was of an earlier era.
The catalogue pic was from the "Rogers 1894 Catalogue" as supplied by Bernard Levine.

To answer Will Power , Bernard was pretty certain that despite the obvious aged aesthetic it was "self consciously old fashioned".
So what I understand from this that is perhaps Rogers were doing a retrospective look back at their golden days? Like a spyderco sprint run of an early heritage line if you get me?
Also the manner in which the typesetting of the block making for the text was done in a more modern format, by machine.
He mentioned scratted bone was also in use up to WW1 on certain utility lines.

Personally I'd have bet the farm it wasnt GV but unless somone knows better I've no reason to doubt him, he's forgotten more than I know about this.

One final addendum, he questioned if it was actually shear steel.
I have several examples of real shear steel and all have a under close inspection a stacked almost laminate appearance. My Gregory Bros and Petty knives have this. The above does have this too so I'm satisfied it is shear. I'd know for certain by the edge it takes and holds but am slow to press this one into use.

Thanks a mill for the link, shear, double and even triple shear steel is one of my areas of special interest

With all due respect to Bernard Levine, the information given by him was from a very poor undocumented copy of "some" catalog. The front cover does not even spell the company's name correctly.
The name is "Joseph Rodgers" not "Rogers". With that said, those Rodgers pruner models, both fixed and folding, are seen in "real" Joseph Rodgers catalogs from 1865 through c. 1912.
Enclosed is a folding example sitting on the sub-par 1894 photo copy catalog with no proof of date.

 

[waynorth]

The name is "Joseph Rodgers" not "Rogers". With that said, those Rodgers pruner models, both fixed and folding, are seen in "real" Joseph Rodgers catalogs from 1865 through c. 1912.

Your dates are the same ones Bernie Levine used to somewhat prove that "scratting" at least dated to 1911-1912 before it disappeared from catalogs, and manufacturers offerings!!

 

[SteveC]

One for Steve

Sweet !

 

[ed_is_dead]

With all due respect to Bernard Levine, the information given by him was from a very poor undocumented copy of "some" catalog. The front cover does not even spell the company's name correctly.
The name is "Joseph Rodgers" not "Rogers". With that said, those Rodgers pruner models, both fixed and folding, are seen in "real" Joseph Rodgers catalogs from 1865 through c. 1912.
Enclosed is a folding example sitting on the sub-par 1894 photo copy catalog with no proof of date.

View attachment 2559451

It appears I'm guilty of the misspelling myself, apologies, the majority of my posts are done with a little one on my knee and spell correct defaults the spelling. That and I'm a bit thick

Firstly that is a beautiful example Herder. The bone appears darker than Waynorths and mine and is also in perfect condition, a credit to any collection. Have you it long and what date do you put it at?

Bernard's inclusion of the catalogue pic in his date findings was not pivotal in his forming an opinion but more how the stamps were cut, and that they displayed signs of being pantograph reduced from larger images, i.e. machine made. By contrast, in the time of George IV and before, stamping dies were cut freehand at actual size. (I'm researching this at length at the mo and enjoying any information on this I can lay my eyes on)
I had specifically asked if he had such a pic and he obliged.

For me at first glance I straight away jumped to G IV, namely one that could be tied down to a seven Yr period between Rodgers being granted the royal warrent and Georgey boy shuffling off his mortal coil, a heady mix that wasn't to be lol but I'm learning lots along the way and love the piece regardless.

 

[ed_is_dead]

Here you are, Ed!!!View attachment 2559430View attachment 2559431
4 3/4" long, and the Rattail bolster is small, but not intergral!!

I assume its flush and square joint Waynorth? If it is it's a slam dunk Your previous posted pics of it folded ages back wouldn't load, good they're here to see again.

 

[waynorth]

Here's my old pic of the joint - yes, it's flush and square!!

 

[Will Power]

The Coffee Pruner and Scratting Saga is becoming really intriguing.

H herder Makes a very valuable point, and displays a fantastic knife with amazing finish and a very appealing bolster. Not sure what it's called but it's like a pinched Rat-Tail if you get the meaning, small detailed bolsters always look at home on these type of knives aesthetically.

Of course, B.Levine is rightly an immense authority and in some ways his work on cataloguing can be likened to Dr.Johnson in England whose epic was to produce a Dictionary of The English Language in the c18th. A massive and daunting task, tackled only by giants, so too with Bernard Levine. However, while 'No Man is an Island' nor is anybody infallible as we all know. Find it really difficult to accept that Scratting went on for such a long time after jigging and Cell had been established. Of course, a quantity of Scratted slabs may have been left laying around in a workshop for decades and somebody decided to use them up. But in Victorian, early C20th times people were less nostalgic about old styles or materials as we have become as c21st collectors, and might well have looked at these things as quaint or even ridiculously old fashioned and just thrown them out- Think clothing styles or even architecture, the Victorians spent a lot of time and money destroying Georgian buildings and older, replacing then with their Neo Gothic taste. My belief is that waynorth Charlie's folding Pruner is Victorian, Levine was an authority but may have been giving an opinion based unwittingly on faulty info?

Would like to see some more close-ups of the blade stamp on the Coffee Pruner, think there may be a difference between small tang stamps/markings cut by hand and larger stamps that might have been machined, might. Remember that the early c19th was a time of very rapid change as industrialisation swept England and other countries: innovations in machinery, advent of the first railway, printing, engraving, steel nibs for pens etc all took place in the first 30 years of the century .

Without seeing the knives in question in the hand you can never be sure, but this much I'd be certain, these knives are most certainly in the Golden Age era and the discussion, when on knives, is as rewarding as ever.

Thanks, Will

 

[Pt-Luso]

Can anyone tell me if this Joseph Rodgers knife is within these dates?

 

[ed_is_dead]

Here's my old pic of the joint - yes, it's flush and square!!View attachment 2559707

Absolute showstopper Waynorth. Flush and square presents such a challenge to a maker and it's a joy to see executed as cleanly as that. As we say round these parts well wear!

The Coffee Pruner and Scratting Saga is becoming really intriguing.

H herder Makes a very valuable point, and displays a fantastic knife with amazing finish and a very appealing bolster. Not sure what it's called but it's like a pinched Rat-Tail if you get the meaning, small detailed bolsters always look at home on these type of knives aesthetically.

Of course, B.Levine is rightly an immense authority and in some ways his work on cataloguing can be likened to Dr.Johnson in England whose epic was to produce a Dictionary of The English Language in the c18th. A massive and daunting task, tackled only by giants, so too with Bernard Levine. However, while 'No Man is an Island' nor is anybody infallible as we all know. Find it really difficult to accept that Scratting went on for such a long time after jigging and Cell had been established. Of course, a quantity of Scratted slabs may have been left laying around in a workshop for decades and somebody decided to use them up. But in Victorian, early C20th times people were less nostalgic about old styles or materials as we have become as c21st collectors, and might well have looked at these things as quaint or even ridiculously old fashioned and just thrown them out- Think clothing styles or even architecture, the Victorians spent a lot of time and money destroying Georgian buildings and older, replacing then with their Neo Gothic taste. My belief is that waynorth Charlie's folding Pruner is Victorian, Levine was an authority but may have been giving an opinion based unwittingly on faulty info?

Would like to see some more close-ups of the blade stamp on the Coffee Pruner, think there may be a difference between small tang stamps/markings cut by hand and larger stamps that might have been machined, might. Remember that the early c19th was a time of very rapid change as industrialisation swept England and other countries: innovations in machinery, advent of the first railway, printing, engraving, steel nibs for pens etc all took place in the first 30 years of the century .

Without seeing the knives in question in the hand you can never be sure, but this much I'd be certain, these knives are most certainly in the Golden Age era and the discussion, when on knives, is as rewarding as ever.

Thanks, Will

I have read on this site regards scratting and it's dating, a bit of a hot potato
Bernard suggests that generally scratted bone is early but on some stout traditional tool or farm knives it continued in use, even into the 1930s. I have nothing to contribute here as my knowledge on a scratting is minimal...

Another question I asked him is why my example which was clearly made for export did not have "England" on it, my thought being it strengthened the case for G IV by predating the 1890 tariffs. He suggests Rodgers did not export enough of their output to America to warrant putting England on it.

Here's some close ups of the stamping. It would be excellent if someone had an example of similar JR stamp from 1823-1830 G IV warrant to compare and contrast the typeface and application.



One point of contention perhaps is the complete mismatch of scatting to the 1894 "catalogue" depiction and likewise the additional Shear Steel stamping on this example...

Can anyone tell me if this Joseph Rodgers knife is within these dates?

I would guess it's inter war period but that's a guess. The blade stamping looks later that Edwardian imo. Love the tang and the contrasting heart wood on the obverse, kind of reminds me of lignum vitae wood. A lovely pocket knife PT.
I might add there's quite a few faked versions of this style being sold out of India for high enough money, just to warn folks.

 

[waynorth]

how the stamps were cut, and that they displayed signs of being pantograph reduced from larger images, i.e. machine made. By contrast, in the time of George IV and before, stamping dies were cut freehand at actual size

If it helps, here are the tang stampings; how to tell if they are machine cut, I don't know!!

 

[waynorth]

I have read on this site regards scratting and it's dating, a bit of a hot potato
Bernard suggests that generally scratted bone is early but on some stout traditional tool or farm knives it continued in use, even into the 1930s. I have nothing to contribute here as my knowledge on a scratting is minimal...

Scratting from 2015!!!!
Ha Ha!! Of course intentionally done as a tribute to the old "Art" of scratting!!
Back to Sheffield!!!!. . . . . . . . . . . .

 

[ed_is_dead]

Scratting from 2015!!!!View attachment 2559759View attachment 2559760View attachment 2559762
Ha Ha!! Of course intentionally done as a tribute to the old "Art" of scratting!!
Back to Sheffield!!!!. . . . . . . . . . . .

Hey hey! Fantastic, is that your handy work?
Here's a very early example of scratting I have shown before,



John Roberts was a Cutler in the first half of the 1800's and left Sheffield for America in 1849 and went on to found the New York Knife Co with likeminded new cutler immigrants in Matteawan New York.

 

[waynorth]

Hey hey! Fantastic, is that work handy work?
Here's a very early example of scratting I have shown before,

That's a limited production SFO from GEC!!!
Can't see your picture, Ed??!!

Here are two old Scratted Barlows!!
Three opinions are that the top one in near 200 years old!!
It, with its blade, inspired the GEC production!!

 

[ed_is_dead]

That's a limited production SFO from GEC!!!
Can't see your picture, Ed??!!

Here are two old Scratted Barlows!!
Three opinions are that the top one in near 200 years old!!
It, with its blade, inspired the GEC production!!
View attachment 2559804

Sorry I have to post the reply and edit the pics I after or the page refreshes and I lose the post, most annoying and I'm not smart enough with tech to figure a workaround.

The Oates is awesome in particular, I see where you got the inspiration for your gec scratting
I'm familiar with an Oates Barlow maker from Sheffield, is it his work? I'm under educated on barlows and have few examples so forgive me if it's not him.




Here is what I believe is my only Barlow. When carrying it I feel like Huckleberry Finn or was it Tom Sawyer who had the Barlow??

I must upload that IXL Catalogue to the appropriate thread, it's complete and from the late 20s/early thirties I believe so would benefit members.

 

[waynorth]

Oates Barlow maker from Sheffield

I'm not sure which it Oates is, Ed!! Jack Black can likely tell us when he gets back from Greece!!!