matriarch availability
- Thread starter Sal Glesser
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Sal Glesser
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Jackstraw - this is a tough question and I am often criticized for my point of view.
Spyderco has been very careful from the early days to provide what we felt the market needed, but not necessarily wanted. In fact when the first Clipits came out in 1981/82, no one "wanted" our ugly hole openers. We were told the Clip was a ridiculous idea and serrations belong on kitchen knives.
It was a hard sell, directly to the ELU for many years. (most dealers wouldn't look at our ugly stainless knives).
We were and are aware of the potential use of a knife for defense in exteme situations.
Since most knives are not used this way 99% of the time a knife is used, promoting the knife for that purpose seemed less responsible that just producing "everyday" knives that were stong, effective "high performance matter separators". They have never been promotoed in what may be considered a "negative" or even "glamorous" marketing style.
The Civilian serves a specific need, but it is not our main purpose. It is not heavily promoted, when it is promoted at all, it is to law enforcement or collectors. It is expensive, thereby greatly limiting the numbers produced and sold (actually controlled proeduction). We really don't want a lot of these "nasty looking knives" (to quote the current british attitude) saying to the world that this is what Spyderco does. We'll make some Martial Bladecraft Folding knives. They'll be well made for specific customers (forumites and their ilk). I enjoy the arts. I enjoy these designs. But like swords for the art of fencing, they are less likely to actually be used for that purpose. Nice to have, confidence and all, but not too many of us actually cut each other up with knives. But it is not specifically what Spyderco does and how we support our staff. Any Spyderco kinife is well designed enough and sharp enough to be used in a defensive situation, but that is not the specific use of the design.
The Matriarch is planned for South Africa in limited numbers and will be distributed by a very responsible disgtributor in an area where some degree of control is possible. It is better than carrying guns for defense in what is an increasingly dangerous enviroment (at least for the next few years)I really don't think it is in Spyderco's best future intrerst to flood the US market with Inexpensive Matriarchs. I've thought about holding a batch for forumites (although here I am assuming responsibility?).
hope that helps.
sal
Spyderco has been very careful from the early days to provide what we felt the market needed, but not necessarily wanted. In fact when the first Clipits came out in 1981/82, no one "wanted" our ugly hole openers. We were told the Clip was a ridiculous idea and serrations belong on kitchen knives.
It was a hard sell, directly to the ELU for many years. (most dealers wouldn't look at our ugly stainless knives).
We were and are aware of the potential use of a knife for defense in exteme situations.
Since most knives are not used this way 99% of the time a knife is used, promoting the knife for that purpose seemed less responsible that just producing "everyday" knives that were stong, effective "high performance matter separators". They have never been promotoed in what may be considered a "negative" or even "glamorous" marketing style.
The Civilian serves a specific need, but it is not our main purpose. It is not heavily promoted, when it is promoted at all, it is to law enforcement or collectors. It is expensive, thereby greatly limiting the numbers produced and sold (actually controlled proeduction). We really don't want a lot of these "nasty looking knives" (to quote the current british attitude) saying to the world that this is what Spyderco does. We'll make some Martial Bladecraft Folding knives. They'll be well made for specific customers (forumites and their ilk). I enjoy the arts. I enjoy these designs. But like swords for the art of fencing, they are less likely to actually be used for that purpose. Nice to have, confidence and all, but not too many of us actually cut each other up with knives. But it is not specifically what Spyderco does and how we support our staff. Any Spyderco kinife is well designed enough and sharp enough to be used in a defensive situation, but that is not the specific use of the design.
The Matriarch is planned for South Africa in limited numbers and will be distributed by a very responsible disgtributor in an area where some degree of control is possible. It is better than carrying guns for defense in what is an increasingly dangerous enviroment (at least for the next few years)I really don't think it is in Spyderco's best future intrerst to flood the US market with Inexpensive Matriarchs. I've thought about holding a batch for forumites (although here I am assuming responsibility?).
hope that helps.
sal
Sal,
Thank you for your response. I appreciate and respect your position. I remember the response to the first clipits as I remember meeting you at the 1981 NY Custom Knife Show. At that time I believe that you had one model, and had quite a crowd around your less than primely placed table. I was always a quick one hand knife freak, and except for Italian switchblades, and inexpensive gravity knives, there wasn't much in the way of one handers. At that show, I remember picking up my first Bali Songs by PC. What a long strange trip huh?
Anyways, for my purposes, the legality issue is a real one. I admit, that the logic of a 4 1/8 vs a less than 4" blade escapes me. A SOLUTION: make them expensive. I would gladly pay. I love the design. Thanks.
Thank you for your response. I appreciate and respect your position. I remember the response to the first clipits as I remember meeting you at the 1981 NY Custom Knife Show. At that time I believe that you had one model, and had quite a crowd around your less than primely placed table. I was always a quick one hand knife freak, and except for Italian switchblades, and inexpensive gravity knives, there wasn't much in the way of one handers. At that show, I remember picking up my first Bali Songs by PC. What a long strange trip huh?
Anyways, for my purposes, the legality issue is a real one. I admit, that the logic of a 4 1/8 vs a less than 4" blade escapes me. A SOLUTION: make them expensive. I would gladly pay. I love the design. Thanks.
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The logic of not promoting the Matriarch, even though it falls within some folks measure of social acceptability (under 4") is that it has been optimized as a weapon at the expense of utility, so that those of us who take pleasure in making swords do plowshare duty have to work at it.
Besides, for having a cutlery company known, by their own choice, as a maker of "edged weapons," isn't one Cold Steel catalog enough? Taipan, Desperado, Terminator, et al!
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
Besides, for having a cutlery company known, by their own choice, as a maker of "edged weapons," isn't one Cold Steel catalog enough? Taipan, Desperado, Terminator, et al!
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
Mr. Glesser, i would ask you to consider making them available to us.
i personally would like to hae one or two, and i'm sure that others would also. as for the marketing and all, it may turn some off, but the impact will be none to little, IMO.
anyone who is going to be so offended by a design so evidently suitable for ivy trimming isn't going to be buying working knives, either, so why worry?
by the same token, anyone so bothered by the possible defensive implications of a certain blade shape so as to boycott Spyderco, or make a stink about it, was probably never a part of your market anyway.
Stay Sharp,
Joe S.-(Spyderco owner, user, and fan, with his fingers crossed, and wallet ready)
i personally would like to hae one or two, and i'm sure that others would also. as for the marketing and all, it may turn some off, but the impact will be none to little, IMO.
anyone who is going to be so offended by a design so evidently suitable for ivy trimming isn't going to be buying working knives, either, so why worry?
by the same token, anyone so bothered by the possible defensive implications of a certain blade shape so as to boycott Spyderco, or make a stink about it, was probably never a part of your market anyway.
Stay Sharp,
Joe S.-(Spyderco owner, user, and fan, with his fingers crossed, and wallet ready)
Sal Glesser
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Joe S - Your comment concerning , "what do we care what they think?" is based on sales and marketing questions. The problems are not regarding sales or marketing. Let me share some additional thought.
Occassionally a Spyderco knife (usually Endura or Police) is involved in a murder or assault case and ends up in a courtroom. We are generally approached by the DA or the Defense to get information about our knives. If one can demonstrate that our knives are produced primarily as weapons, it flavors the case. ("Why is this individual carrying a weapon and for what purpose? argues pre-meditation in the crime)
Too many bad flavors before an assertive Judge trying to "to the right thing" would most likely get a negative opinion about such a company that makes these weapons to harm honest law abiding citizens. What these people (Judges) think can and is hurting many companies right now, look at the gun industry - Real time. I recognize that most of you that are interested in these designs are not planning intentional bodily harm to law abiding citizens, but I believe you (knife aficianados) and I are probably a minority and often misunderstood. How could Spyderco explain gang wars using our Matriarchs as the primary weapon?
sal
Occassionally a Spyderco knife (usually Endura or Police) is involved in a murder or assault case and ends up in a courtroom. We are generally approached by the DA or the Defense to get information about our knives. If one can demonstrate that our knives are produced primarily as weapons, it flavors the case. ("Why is this individual carrying a weapon and for what purpose? argues pre-meditation in the crime)
Too many bad flavors before an assertive Judge trying to "to the right thing" would most likely get a negative opinion about such a company that makes these weapons to harm honest law abiding citizens. What these people (Judges) think can and is hurting many companies right now, look at the gun industry - Real time. I recognize that most of you that are interested in these designs are not planning intentional bodily harm to law abiding citizens, but I believe you (knife aficianados) and I are probably a minority and often misunderstood. How could Spyderco explain gang wars using our Matriarchs as the primary weapon?
sal
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Hmmm . . . How to explain a gang war with the Matriarch as primary weapon . . . .
How about the good civic purpose of reducing "collateral damage"? A knife won't miss the rival gang member and kill a a baby a block away!
Still, that's the situation that got switchblades outlawed in a bunch of jurisdictions a generation or so ago.
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
How about the good civic purpose of reducing "collateral damage"? A knife won't miss the rival gang member and kill a a baby a block away!
Still, that's the situation that got switchblades outlawed in a bunch of jurisdictions a generation or so ago.
------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
i understand what you're saying, but everytime any knife is used, anywhere, it speaks bad press for knives. it's not just Spyderco, it's a product of the society Americans and the world have collectively made.
i don't know; i just don't feel it's necessary for a huge segment of your loyal fans to miss out on something, or for you to miss out on the sales, just because it looks a little scary (is the tooling costs even worth the small market in SA? maybe it would be alright to make a few hundred for use by forumites, like you suggested). i understand you're concerned with the image of your company. i just.....i can't formulate a good argument now. i wish i could say something brilliant about the necessity to sometimes toe the edge a little, and that freedoms are not truly there unless you exercise them.
i can't though. just too tired, i guess. anyway, i just ask that you give it serious thought.
Respectfully,
Joe S.
i don't know; i just don't feel it's necessary for a huge segment of your loyal fans to miss out on something, or for you to miss out on the sales, just because it looks a little scary (is the tooling costs even worth the small market in SA? maybe it would be alright to make a few hundred for use by forumites, like you suggested). i understand you're concerned with the image of your company. i just.....i can't formulate a good argument now. i wish i could say something brilliant about the necessity to sometimes toe the edge a little, and that freedoms are not truly there unless you exercise them.
i can't though. just too tired, i guess. anyway, i just ask that you give it serious thought.
Respectfully,
Joe S.
Sal,
Thank you for the responsible attitude you show. I believe it reflects well on your company.
As a forumite, I probably would purchase a Matriarch if it was offered to us similar to the way the Native is being offered. However, I'm not sure this would generate the same enthusiasm from the forumites that the Native has. Since the Matriarch, at least the way I understand it, is similar in purpose to the Civilian - but at lower cost - there might or might not be enough general interest here.
A poll of forumites in the future, once the Native project is out of the way, might be a good way to find out.
Thank you for the responsible attitude you show. I believe it reflects well on your company.
As a forumite, I probably would purchase a Matriarch if it was offered to us similar to the way the Native is being offered. However, I'm not sure this would generate the same enthusiasm from the forumites that the Native has. Since the Matriarch, at least the way I understand it, is similar in purpose to the Civilian - but at lower cost - there might or might not be enough general interest here.
A poll of forumites in the future, once the Native project is out of the way, might be a good way to find out.
Sal Glesser
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I'm open and flexible, but will alwaystry to be responsible. When the production begins, I will see if there is a simple way to supply a "one shot - not for resale" batch to Forumites. (Maybe an odd color?)
sal
sal
>>When the production begins, I will see if there is a simple way to supply a "one shot - not for resale" batch to Forumites. (Maybe an odd color?)<<
that sounds like a great idea to me. can Zytel be had in a nice brown, or a dark grey color? these are probably the best neutral colors to do it in, other than black. maybe a dark green or such would work.
please, no garish bright blues or reds.
thanks for considering.
Stay Sharp,
Joe S.
that sounds like a great idea to me. can Zytel be had in a nice brown, or a dark grey color? these are probably the best neutral colors to do it in, other than black. maybe a dark green or such would work.
please, no garish bright blues or reds.
thanks for considering.
Stay Sharp,
Joe S.
Sal,
You are correct in refraining from mass Matriarch marketing in the U.S. You have a positive(as positive as a knife company can get) company image established, which could easily/quickly turn sour from 'bad'incidents, making it bad for everyone, your employees to the ELU.
I think many of the forumites(me included) don't mind that the rest of country won't/can't get one, as long as 'we' can get one...or three
.
I am one of those 'basic black' people, so I will purchase a Forumspecial if Spyderco offers it(regardless of color), but I'll still try to get a hold of a couple black ones somehow.
Thanks,
Ken
ps- If colored handles are the way it's gonna go, I'm putting a vote in for (big suprise),grey handles.
You are correct in refraining from mass Matriarch marketing in the U.S. You have a positive(as positive as a knife company can get) company image established, which could easily/quickly turn sour from 'bad'incidents, making it bad for everyone, your employees to the ELU.
I think many of the forumites(me included) don't mind that the rest of country won't/can't get one, as long as 'we' can get one...or three
I am one of those 'basic black' people, so I will purchase a Forumspecial if Spyderco offers it(regardless of color), but I'll still try to get a hold of a couple black ones somehow.
Thanks,
Ken
ps- If colored handles are the way it's gonna go, I'm putting a vote in for (big suprise),grey handles.
Sal Glesser
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Current thought is for a dark gray or some other more subtle color. We can squirt plastic in any color. Whaddayouwant?
sal
sal
i'm with Ken on the dark grey. IMO, they're the best, because they are the closest thing to black, while still being immediately, recognizably different. there's reasons that standard Black handled models outsell any number of fancy colors: they are a decent color for those tactical situations, which is one of the matriarch's definate design factors, plus they conceal/blend in well with dark clothing/pants.
a dark enough grey would still have these attributes, but be different, and still aesthetically pleasing.
you could go to any number of colors, and no disrespect intended, they are just bad ideas. i don't mind OD or brown handles so much, but even they look weird, IMO. any other color, IMO, is just gaudy. i think grey is a nice, neutral, tactical color.
i would probably still buy one, even in a color i don't like, assuming it's not yellow, or orange, etc. but offer it in grey-woohah! put me down for several.
Stay Sharp,
Joe S.
a dark enough grey would still have these attributes, but be different, and still aesthetically pleasing.
you could go to any number of colors, and no disrespect intended, they are just bad ideas. i don't mind OD or brown handles so much, but even they look weird, IMO. any other color, IMO, is just gaudy. i think grey is a nice, neutral, tactical color.
i would probably still buy one, even in a color i don't like, assuming it's not yellow, or orange, etc. but offer it in grey-woohah! put me down for several.
Stay Sharp,
Joe S.
Cobalt
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Sal, if you do this for us forumites, count me in for two. I think this is a great Idea. If this had been the knife chosen as the bladeforum knife, I would have gotten it because I like the design and it is not sold here anyway. Dark Gray would be good.