New Orleans Police Problem and Martial Arts

Dave Rishar said:
True, but there's a very good reason for this policy: if you're striking someone on the limbs with a blunt object you're using pain to force compliance. If you strike them on the head you're trying to kill them. At least, that's how the courts tend to view it.
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You are absolutely correct ... I probably should have added that to my original message, so thanks for adding it.

It also underscores that much (not all, but much) of the body of "martial arts" wonder techniques would fail as well if they rely on pain for compliance.
 
Danny, it is time and money, but also desire, unfortunately most do just enough to get and keep certified. A friend that trains with me also trains with the local Bujikan guy and says most of the class is LEO’s, corrections, and military, so some are serious about getting training. What works and what is legally acceptable is often at odds. A friend’s father taught defensive tactics among other things at the state police academy off and on several years, in reality it is hours or at most days of training. As you mentioned it takes months to get the skills and be “comfortable” enough to keep yourself safe and then handle an aggressor effectively, so is it a surprise that we see these tapes of police falling back on just pounding away at someone?

Todd
 
Some departments are switching to more of the MMA type of grappling arts like those found in BJJ. I have mixed feelings about how effective they are to grapple someone into submission.

I taught LE for many years in both empty hand and baton the empty hand based in Ju Jitsu and Chin-na. Anatomical manipulation is still the best method of control especially when you need to minimize damage.

Consider that most people now days know some form of martial art so it is no longer the magic fix and the officer has to not only learn but work hard to stay effective against someone who knows what the officer is trying to do.
 
I know that UFC is not "real" in the sense that it has rules, but I do think it's interesting to watch how fights play out . Especially when you get fighters who are primarily strikers up against grapplers/wrestlers. It's pretty uncommon in UFC nowadays to find any fighters who aren't well versed in both, but you do get some that definitely specialize in one over the other. I think the challenge for any MA practitioner or LEO is having enough competence to bring down a bad guy who can stand and fight. It is difficult to bring down any boxer who can resist takedowns.


That's my discounted $.02 from an armchair UFC fan... ;) :rolleyes:
 
As a police officer I would love to have another option, however with the exspense the department won't pay for it (I work for the Army as a Civillian police officer). Another thing we only get 2 weeks of annual training a year.


James
 
Danny, you know I appreciate where you come from. I've trained in the same arts. I share the same theory. I believe in the value of true martial training.

What you are suggesting is just not practical, brother. It's almost as practical as suggesting that everyone just get along. It takes too long to train up to the level you describe, and departments already often don't even have the budgets to pay for training ammunition, which is *vitally* more important than the martial arts we train in.

Do I think I train in some of the most effective martial arts in the world? Yes, I do. However, I have finally come to realize that the budo I train in takes absolutely too long to be effective for most people to want (or sometimes, have the resources) to train in, and is too individualized to be taught to a large group of people.

There's another problem. It's so much safer to stop someone than to control them without injury. The training you describe- for the reasons I describe- is not realistically going to happen, and I want the officers safe. Use the damn ASPs. Use the Tasers. Use the chem spray. Use them in the right circumstances, and train to know those circumstances. That's the best we can realistically expect.

Respectfully,

John
 
I will guess that money is the biggest factor in hiring good cops and training them. These guys work for nothing and a majority of their time now is spent on Homeland Defense ordained paperwork......here anyways. Lately on the news in Phoenix they've been discussing the use of tasers after someone was subdued with one and died. I'm beginning to think that no matter what force they use the cops will always be the bad guys. Makes me wonder.....
 
Good cops seldom get credit, but bad cops always get headlines :grumpy:

Martial arts for cops? Absolutely, at least as much as is feasible/practical, within the time/budgetary constraints most police forces are strapped with.

Found myself at an all night moto-cross race one night in Beligium, when a boisterous, and obviously quite intoxicated, young gentlemen started getting entirely out of hand. There were women and children present, so I was striding over to have some "words" with him myself, when out of nowhere appeared the biggest dadgum gendarme (Belgian police) I've ever seen. No kidding, think Lurch from the Adam's Family. The gendarme, with a cup of coffee in his hand, and a pleasant smile on his face, stepped up to the rude dude, and placed his hand on his shoulder in an odd, quick, motion. Next thing you know, this guy goes limp as a rag doll and crumples to the ground. The gendarme politely wished me "bon nuit", and slowly walked away, still smiling, sipping coffee with his left hand, and rather untenderly dragging Joe-bag-o-donuts with his right.

Love them gendarmes. Had another encounter with them at a club one night. I'd fixed up a female Belgian friend of mine with a guy that I thought was a squared away dude. At some point in the evening, I found my friend in a corner of the club crying her eyes out, seems the guy had attempted to be "most ungentlemanly", and I'll let it go at that. Don't remember many times I've ever been that mad, but I snatched that dude up, hauled him out in the parking lot, and commenced wailing on him with a vengeance. Gendarmes showed up and grabbed both of us, but, as some of the club patrons explained the situation, they turned us loose and stepped back. I was mightily confused until someone interpreted to me that, as long as I had no intention of killing or maiming the dude, they were content to let me finish. Now some would say that's wrong, but it was one of those deals where you really had to be there. ;)

Sarge
 
I guess all we can do is appeal to the officers themselves, to do it on their own over the years...
 
We took psychotic patients down all the time safely. But we had them in a controlled environment without firearms, and lots of staff.

I didn't like the way the cop was striking the man's head and the head was bouncing off the wall.

Some martial arts are probably more germane to law enforcement. I'd leave it to you experts to know.



munk
 
I didn't like the way the cop was striking the man's head and the head was bouncing off the wall.
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Yeah, me either. That just doesn't seem like a control technique as much as something you do when you're pissed off, to hurt someone.

LEO's: am I wrong on this?
 
Sylvrfalcn said:
. . .
The gendarme, with a cup of coffee in his hand, and a pleasant smile on his face, stepped up to the rude dude, and placed his hand on his shoulder in an odd, quick, motion. Next thing you know, this guy goes limp as a rag doll and crumples to the ground.
. . .
Sarge
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Pointed ears?
 
No Vulcan. Probably an uppercut.

Oh well- there's lots of compliance moves. I was thinking of those boxers that only have to move their fists a few inches with a little chin tap....





munk
 
It doesn't seem like these cops possessed that knowledge does it?
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No, it doesn't, thank God!

The last we need is to teach power-tripping thugs new and improved ways of beating people up!
 
If the new and improved techniques result in less injury to the people they're beating up?

The problem isn't what you do faced with a drugged criminal, but how you handle a clumsy drunk. What do you use on a man with a gun or a knife? Not martial arts ...

Still, police do get involved in physical confrontations, and any training is better than none, even if all it does is help them understand what the other guy is likely to do.

Budgets are more flexible than you might think. Is it better to have everyone on the street with no training, or 10% of your personnel in class at any given time? If you can't afford 10%, can you afford 1%? Eventually, you will pay for untrained personnel, in any business. (If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.)
 
Of Course Esav is right! The more training the better. And I believe that if one follows that training, one is more peaceful, and able to confront bad guys with fewer injuries all around.


Animal corollary: the mammals with the most weapons typically inflict the least harm on one another in mating and power discipline episodes.



munk
 
I ask you this, Esav: how much (or how little) training did the folks in the video have? I can't prove this (yet) but if I had to guess, I'd say that someone lost their temper and started flailing.

With a better knowledge of nonlethal techniques, would he still have flailed?

Perhaps we're not dealing with the best example here.

I do hope (and expect) that in any given precinct, the manpower/training budget game is being played properly. That's what I'm paying for.

I'm not arguing that this sort of training is a waste of time - it's not. Again, additional training leads to additional options and more options are always good. What I'm arguing is that simply "throwing more training at the problem" could do more harm than good, especially when the time and money alloted to that particular training might better have been spent on something else.
 
A lot of people sure haven't learned how to respond wisely to an authority figure have they?
If a cop tells you to sit down and shut up, then the right response is to stand up and yell back and spit on the cop, right?
If a cop tells you to calm yourself down, then the right response is to start cursing and spitting back on the cop, right?
If a cop tells you to stop and don't run, then the right response is to run like the wind, right?
If a cop tells you to do something, then always resist him and get as rebellious as possible toward him, right?
Hey, dummy what do you think is going to happen to you when you get violent and start fighting with the cops? You are probably going to end up getting your rear end thumped on for a while, right?
If you don't want your rear end thumped on, all you have to do is say yes sir and do what the cops tell you to do and then smile and be agreeable with the cops and life will go easier for you.
However, we all make our choices on how we are going to react when dealing with the cops, right? And we will live with the consequences of our choices, right? And when we don't like the consequences of our choices, then the right thing to do is blame the cops, right. Afterall, they should be able to fully control themselves after being cursed at and spit on and so forth, right?
J. W. Kilpatrick
 
that was a pretty vicious thing i saw. repeated strikes to the head.

what good is training if you lose your cool? we are all humans afterall, it may be rare, but even well trained folk can lose their temper.

i have faith in our police force that they are professionals. but at the same time i can't naively think that even the best can't lose their temper or get scared frozen.

he lost his cool. plain and simple.
 
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