New Orleans Police Problem and Martial Arts

Esav Benyamin said:
What do you use on a man with a gun or a knife? Not martial arts ...

Of course you do!
There's not much else you can do. Don't assume that martial arts only contain empty-handed punch and grab kind of techniques. This is a misunderstanding of what martial arts are. Using guns and knives most certainly is a part of real martial arts.
It would take a while to explain all this, but obviously people have some misconceptions as to what martial arts really are. That might be one reason this thread had so much trouble staying focused.
It's not hard to see, though, given that so many "dojos" are just BS, run by guys who dont know what the hell they are talking about and even if they did, mom would never pay for little 8 year old billy to learn how to cut throats from behind or how to kill two people with one bullet.
But, you better believe it, REAL martial arts teach everything....
 
I agree with dannyinjapan.

I think martial arts emcompass a lot of things. To ones that are dedicated.They are ways of life. Respect,discipline,morality to name a few.

Through trainning, speed,agility,reflex and coordination improves, so in a critical situation (say confronting a gun or khuk), chances of survival increase.
 
Being a big guy might help with regular a$$holes, but it wont help you in a serious situation. My freind Mayhem proved that to me without a doubt.
One 9mm bullet ended his life and he was mad as hell when he got shot.
6'6", 350 pounds....
 
DannyinJapan said:
Of course you do!
There's not much else you can do. Don't assume that martial arts only contain empty-handed punch and grab kind of techniques. This is a misunderstanding of what martial arts are.

No one's assuming anything. You must admit, though, that many (not all, but many) martial arts, both traditional and otherwise, seem organized along these lines today. Were they always? Probably not, but that's where a lot of schools seem to be now.

DannyinJapan said:
It's not hard to see, though, given that so many "dojos" are just BS, run by guys who dont know what the hell they are talking about and even if they did, mom would never pay for little 8 year old billy to learn how to cut throats from behind or how to kill two people with one bullet.
But, you better believe it, REAL martial arts teach everything....

When deadly force is authorized in the defense of others, the underlying principle is that we're applying said force to preserve life - my life, someone else's life, perhaps even the life of the person the deadly force is being applied to. (Think about that one for a moment.) The goal is not to kill them; the goal is to make them stop doing whatever it is that they're doing that's threatening others. Sometimes it's easy to lose sight of this.
 
When deadly force is authorized in the defense of others, the underlying principle is that we're applying said force to preserve life - my life, someone else's life, perhaps even the life of the person the deadly force is being applied to. (Think about that one for a moment.) The goal is not to kill them; the goal is to make them stop doing whatever it is that they're doing that's threatening others. Sometimes it's easy to lose sight of this.

Ok, Satori, I think you have hit on something important here. This is NOT the purpose of martial arts, this is the purpose of policing. The purpose of a police officer is to serve and protect. The purpose of martial arts is to protect the individual who uses it. There is no moral purpose behind the martial arts. It works for good AND bad, just like the force. It's simply the art of killing.

It's understandable that most people don't know these things. The real martial arts have been hidden away to protect them from the government, etc...

Still, a man who has mastered a certain degree of skill can stop his movement before it kills. He can control an assailant without killing him. We can provide that moral purpose.

Obviously words are not sufficient to explain Art, and that includes the martial arts. I hope the everyone will try to learn some on their own, if only to enrich their lives.
 
I watch the crop of new martial arts films coming out of Hong Kong; does that count?



munk
 
You have to realize that now days every other person has some martial arts, though the average drop out rate is like 90% still a lot of people know enough to do some damage. Many martial artists have a false sense of security thinking they are going to beat the bad guy and somehow the bad guy isn’t going to know what to do. I have seen many black belt/sashes get stomped.
When I first started there were just a limited number of black belts/sashes around now they are everywhere.
 
Azis said:
When I first started there were just a limited number of black belts/sashes around now they are everywhere.

That's right, eventually one has to see that there is always something more, another plane, another level.
It can take a while to see that there are many people of very high rank, and people who hold great power, even in other worlds , like politics, who are just idiots!

You have to take care of yourself and your family. Nobody else is going to do it for you. (I guess that makes me a republican)
Gosh this thread has drifted hugely, but I will try to close it with this:

In most Bujinkan dojos, when a new student enters the dojo, he may be awarded rank based upon his life experience. A cop who has been walking the mean streets may be awarded a black belt on his first day.
They know how to survive a bad situation, obviously!
Veterans of war get the same. Any real martial artist will recognize such skills and knowledge immediately and try to learn from these people.
It is to be hoped that this continues.

In that vein, you might understand why Bujinkan guys like to go hang out at the VFW!
They're learning valuable stuff! For free!
 
munk said:
I watch the crop of new martial arts films coming out of Hong Kong; does that count?

Are you watching them for good or for evil?

Back on topic: besides the whole balancing act of time and money and such, a concern of mine is that a little knowledge can be worse than no knowledge at all. I think of the various holds and restraining techniques that I've seen over the years and it seems to me that the more effective they are versus a noncompliant individual, the more harm they can do if applied too forcefully or if the recipient simply does the wrong thing.

Some joint locks do not hurt much, if at all - until you've gone too far. They're perfectly safe in practice and competition because the guy on the other end knows what it feels like and what the end result will be if he doesn't tap. A violent drunk may not know that or may not care. Snap. He'll live, and things certainly could've been worse, but the lawsuit that follows won't be fun.

There's far more to most styles than wrenching limbs, of course - like you said - but most of it involves hurting someone else. That's why it's a "martial" art. And I fully agree with you that a skillful stylist can reduce the risk of injury through expertise, but we're counting on some givens if we're not expecting anyone to get hurt. The level of skill necessary for this is IMO fairly high. We have to ask ourselves if it's practical to force this level of training on a given department and devote enough time to practicing it to keep it fresh.

I don't like telling war stories (sea stories are another matter, of course) but one stands out in my mind right now and makes for an interesting example of how things can end up:

The ship's in Guam and five hundred sailors hit the beach. A party was winding down and everyone was good and drunk. One guy had a bit too much and was wandering around causing trouble. As I was on the large side and (relatively) sober, I was tasked with bringing him back before the police were called.

I caught up to him and tried talking. That didn't work. I tried the Gaijin Smash. (Surprisingly effective against military personnel, who are conditioned for years to obey orders quickly and efficiently; it's sometimes fun to shout "HALT!" in a crowded place and watch everyone stop momentarily.) That didn't do the job either. After that he became violent. I placed a rear naked choke on him, held it until he was semiconscious, and carried him back on my shoulders. A corpsman who was present (drunk, but a corpsman nonetheless) gave him a clean bill of health, no harm was done, and the guy thanked me the next day for keeping him out of trouble.

Not surprisingly, only a little while later he began acting up again. Someone else choked him out that time. Again, it stopped the problem and no harm was done.

Did I do the right thing? Kind of. He didn't get in any trouble. (Not from the local authorities, anyway; his boss, who'd sent me after him in the first place, had some choice words for him the next day.) You know and I know (and the corpsman knew, evidently) that such a choke is safe if it's not held for too long and the neck isn't wrenched. It certainly did the job. But:

1. What if he'd flopped on his back? Or grabbed my package? Or stomped on my (bare) feet? None of these would've broken the hold but it would've made me mighty angry. I might very well have started wrenching him in response and subsequently injured him. Hell, I might have released him and commenced to flailing...much like what we saw in the now-infamous video.

2. What did others think? There was a small resteraunt nearby with outdoor seating and the patrons got quite a show that night. (In fact, someone there called the police.) They did not know how it began, who we were, or that I was actually helping the guy rather than hurting him; all they knew was one guy was choking another guy out in the rain. Others explained the situation to them afterwards. I don't know if they believed it or not.

3. If I'd been trained better, might I have handled it better? Possibly, but then again, choking drunks and carrying them around wasn't exactly my job. ;) And again, what would've happened if I'd lost my temper?
 
Edward Teach said:
The last we need is to teach power-tripping thugs new and improved ways of beating people up!
I really was going to stay out of this one, honest I was.....but I would stoop to suggest that Brother Teach is full of condensed apple pie. After roughly 28 years in federal law enforcement (DEA is no picnic) and two more as a ranger, I am here to tell you that cops do not leave their home each day to see how many citizens they can screw over. During the eleven years I spent in Detroit, I was involved in an average of two shootings a month (not always as the shooter) but those in which I needed to make a statement based on being in the room when IT happened. I was never happier than when a defendant surrendered peacefully, and announced to one and all that his lawyer would get him out before the ink was dry.....we all got to go home that night. There were always those A$$^0!$ who determined to shoot their way out, or otherwise resist arrest.........You can't just say "See you around" and let the guy walk. I never carried anything other than a firearm, on the basis that if I did, someone would second guess me later after I shot the guy, asking "why did you use the gun first". If someone resists violently, I was damn sure I was the one going home to mama tonight. No excuses; I am proud to have served you all without reservation.
 
All good questions.
I don't know the answers, but I believe that Budo can help us deal with them.
Good stories, thanks.
Narc, would you have been in trouble if you used the pistol to strike or apply a joint lock?
Im curious if it is only OK for you to shoot someone witha firearm.
 
I believe Jurrasic. There's abuse everywhere. Ever spank your kid harder than you wanted to? I think most cops want to survive. I think most cops are OK. It took me awhile- to see people as people. I've been given breaks by cops, and I've been beaten by them.

I don't think it could be logically argued that advanced martial arts training for cops would result in more damage to citizens.

9-11 gave us an opportunity to reinvent the police as good guys. That's right. Let's not lose that chance. It's kinda like teachers, we can't pay them enough, but I want the best people we got there.

I'd like very much to live in a world where I could trust the police. That is how I was brought up. I would like to look up to them. I generally trust them in Montana.

munk
 
well, the Bujinkan is a school of Budo. Budo is Japanese for "martial arts"

I don't know about your old school, but when a man walks in who has killed a dozen VC with his hands, we recognize that invaluable experience and knowledge.
Real combat experience is something that you can't get any other way than to go into combat.
That is martial arts, War.
 
I know several men who have killed lots of other men. I have never understood the facination with "martial arts". To me it is simply a matter of aiming your rifle and having the will to pull the trigger.

Hand to hand combat in war is a last resort measure. But I suppose one could make an argument for being ready for the last resort should it occur. I think it really comes down to mind-set more than anything else. A pre-emptive ruthless surprize attack can make up for lack of skill. Unless, of course, you happen to run into Bruce Lee or his reincarnation......
 
Semper
you are right and wrong.
Aiming the rifle and having the will to pull the trigger IS martial arts.
A part of it, anyway.
Real "martial arts" is SOLDIER training, not a character building, boy-scout style hobby.
People marketed it that way, but that wasn't the truth.
 
Words are getting in our way here. "real" martial arts are character building as well as training for 'martial' activities.

I can say this, of course, based upon my years of non training with martial arts.


munk
 
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