Not kill your self in the woods!

You don't have the "right" to be irritated with them.

You get to volunteer and save them, or not.

If you are irritated, then quit, because your heart isn't in it. You don't get to be "Judge"

If you disagree, please give me the specific criteria you use to determine whether or not someone legitimately needs help or is "stupid" NOT examples, serious verifiable criteria that all of us can use that would lead us to the same conclusion. Otherwise it is all "opinion" and I for one am sick of hearing the drivel.

Ya know what "irritates" me? People that volunteer to be SAR, Firefighters or EMT's and then complain that they have to save "stupid" people. If the people were "smart" they wouldn't be in those situations, now would they? They would stay away from dangerous people, stay home during inclement weather and not start dangerous fires, right?

Accidents happen, people have poor judgement and sometimes, SOMETIMES they just do things that seem to go against common sense. If there is anyone out there who has not done something "stupid" in their life, please speak up because I am going to call you on it.

In the mean time, stop whining while you save them.
 
PrimitiveMan said:
You don't have the "right" to be irritated with them.

You get to volunteer and save them, or not.

If you are irritated, then quit, because your heart isn't in it. You don't get to be "Judge".
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My opinion is you dont have the right to criticize till your ass is in the grass man. Its that armchair critic thing.

Opinions are what they are.

My heart is totally in it, it doesnt mean I am not disappointed.

When I am hauling your sorry ass out I am judge and jury and sentencing is final.;)

Its not complaining but rather letting others know whats thought from the other side.

Happy to hear you had a blast in Orygon:thumbup:

Skam
 
I have all due respect for ALL those who put their ass on the line.

This has NOTHING to do with that. You are still all that to me.

Just tired of hearing terms like "stupid" and discussing the "unprepared"

Smart, prepared people don't need you very often, do they?

As far as being "armchair" I am not an official SAR or EMT member, and I am a LOOOONG ways from doing what you guys do, but I have saved a few "stupid" people.

You have my total respect when you head out at 3:00 am, when you could be in a warm bed.
 
PM...you are just wrong. Perhaps it is because you have never done this stuff, I don't know. I look at it from the VFD side. When I get a page at 2am to go to a fire and it turns out some jackass was killing wasps in his utility room with a Zippo and a can of WD-40 (yes, a real call) I have every damn right to be pissed.

I am not pissed because I had to wake up and go help out. Hell, I enjoyed working as a FF. I am pissed that some people are so damn stupid. I absolutely have that right. I can be mad at stupid just as much as anyone else. Cops get mad at idiot drivers who make their life difficult. It is the way of these types of fields. Doesn't mean we won't continue to do it, it just means that we get fed up with being taken for granted from time to time.
 
dougo83 said:
It is the way of these types of fields. Doesn't mean we won't continue to do it, it just means that we get fed up with being taken for granted from time to time.
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Glad you put it in such a nice manny, I don't think I would have gone that route.


I don't have the right?

Im sorry it irritates you primitive that when Im called out to risk my life, that I might not have too if someone would have taken proper precautions. And sure, If I don't like it I can leave, but what happens when every one does that?

Every firefighter, cop, sar gets sick of it and says screw it, then who's going to be the one getting called out?

I KNOW I have the right to be pissed when people do stupid things, Im not saying I don't enjoy what I do any less because of it. And it also doesn't mean I will do any less when I get that call, but for you to say I don't have a legitimate thing to bitch about is ludicrous.

I would much rather have a call for someone who has been missing, and find out they did everything in their power to try and help them selves, and they were just to the point that they couldn't do anything else. What gets me is the idiots who get drunk, and have stupid friends who think its a great Idea to cross a river in a 1/4 tonne truck. Then, try and get out and get sucked down a river.

THAT pisses me off PM, but, I'm their for a reason, because If I don't get up and help, no one else will. And thats the same thing that goes through every other Emergency responder, we are their for a reason, because no one else will, while sometimes It's F$%#ing nuts, and probably the most insane thing I will ever do, I STILL do it, because I DO have to.
 
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No one can deny emergency personnel the right to bitch and moan about saving people who willingly put themselves in bad situations and consequently endanger their rescuers. One of the reasons I find myself drawn to medical research rather than primary care is the frustration I anticipate in dealing with people who ignore sound medical advice and preventative measures, only to complain when their bodies fall apart. The costs of their failures propagate far beyond themselves and burdens the entire medical system.

However, there is a difference between venting about those you choose to serve by saving, and maliciously ranting about those who are obviously inferior to your supreme awesomeness. I believe a person should commit to saving others, and thereby accept all inherent risks, only because he genuinely enjoys doing it or finds it rewarding above all else. Not because it bolsters some rank superiority complex. Do it because you want to save those who can't save themselves, not because you want to feel powerful. Do it out of compassion, not arrogance. Do it because you love it, or do it not at all.

My former boss, the finest physician-scientist I ever had the honor of interacting with, told me once that being a doctor (a clinician, in that conversation) boiled down to one thing: whether or not you liked being around sick people. If you don't like being around sick people, you will hate being a doctor, and you should find another profession. I think that statement applies to all sorts of other service fields. I believe it's fine to vent about foolish people that put themselves and others at risk, but the line should be drawn at denigrating the very people you're supposed to be helping.
 
Fonly, I think, if you wish, you may close the thread on your own :thumbup:. Go to "thread tools" in the menu below the page numbers at the top of the page.
 
rksoon said:
No one can deny emergency personnel the right to bitch and moan about saving people who willingly put themselves in bad situations and consequently endanger their rescuers. One of the reasons I find myself drawn to medical research rather than primary care is the frustration I anticipate in dealing with people who ignore sound medical advice and preventative measures, only to complain when their bodies fall apart. The costs of their failures propagate far beyond themselves and burdens the entire medical system.

However, there is a difference between venting about those you choose to serve by saving, and maliciously ranting about those who are obviously inferior to your supreme awesomeness. I believe a person should commit to saving others, and thereby accept all inherent risks, only because he genuinely enjoys doing it or finds it rewarding above all else. Not because it bolsters some rank superiority complex. Do it because you want to save those who can't save themselves, not because you want to feel powerful. Do it out of compassion, not arrogance. Do it because you love it, or do it not at all.

My former boss, the finest physician-scientist I ever had the honor of interacting with, told me once that being a doctor (a clinician, in that conversation) boiled down to one thing: whether or not you liked being around sick people. If you don't like being around sick people, you will hate being a doctor, and you should find another profession. I think that statement applies to all sorts of other service fields. I believe it's fine to vent about foolish people that put themselves and others at risk, but the line should be drawn at denigrating the very people you're supposed to be helping.
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What I bolded here is pretty much what fonly, skammer, and I keep saying. I used to love firefighting. I get a rush out of going into burning buildings. Structure fires, though tragic, were always a huge adrenaline rush. I also like knowing that I am making a difference in somebody's life. Hell, I didn't care what it was, I loved helping people out. I would go unlock cars for people, respond to nonsense calls, and even help with what we dubbed "petSAR." I don't have a problem doing any of it.

I will still complain when I go into a stupid call. There is no malice involved...usually. I can say someone is stupid without any emotion behind it. Like the example I posted earlier, that was purely stupid. I would submit that even Mother Teresa would have wondered about the intelligence of one who makes a miniature flamethrower in their home. Now an MVA involving alcohol, that is an exception to not putting emotion into my volunteer work. I feel nothing but hatred for drunk drivers and rightfully so. I feel sorry for the victims in the accident, but never for the responsible party.

The key to these types of jobs, IME, is the ability to turn off emotion while in the course of one's duties. I reacted as professional as posisble while on scene. Once I was back in the house, all bets were off. Those who have never been involved in these types of efforts don't understand the amount of stress that some volunteers are under. I, for one, feel the need to do this. It is something I have felt for a long time, a "Calling," if you will. That doesn't make it any less stressful. There are a number of ways to relieve that stress. Venting is one of the most efficient. That is what we do. All jobs do it. TO say that we "don't have a right" or do it because of a "superiority complex" is complete crap.
 
Then to me, that is fine Doug :thumbup:. I would venture to say that from what I've read, you and Fonly engage in the former. From what I've read though, and perhaps I'm misinterpreting, Skammer comes across as doing the latter. It is not my intention to insult Skammer. Really it's not that people get upset with his venting...rather it's the way he seems to go about it. I think people just react to a perceived lack of compassion, and when they call him on it, he responds with air of superiority and one-up-manship that does him no favors. As you pointed out earlier, the core of what he's saying is valid, but the way he presents it irritates people and (to take it a step further) makes them wonder why he chooses to serve in the first place.

The issue is a complex one. I was thinking about it last night and there are so many facets to the discussion. For instance, your drunk driver point is a good one, and something to chew on. I find it difficult to argue that drunk drivers don't deserve the rancor they receive...so yes, what's the difference between a drunk driver who makes a choice that results in injury or death to himself or others, and the hiker who makes an equally irresponsible choice. The "if I don't do it, no one else will" point is also a meaty one, especially in this day and age where everyone seems to want to pass the buck. Or what about looking at it from a machiavellian perspective: why does it matter what the rescuer feels/believes if the end result is the same? The rescued parties are still alive and well regardless of what the rescuer thinks of them.

I took the discussion at face value, and now realize the rabbit hole will go as deep as we make it. Obviously my post above is just another opinion in a sea of opinions, and Skammer probably holds a completely different set of values than I do. I have learned a thing or two from Skammer, and I believe he has a ton of real world experience to contribute to W&SS. I appreciate his contributions and I appreciate the results of the work he does. I just think that if his aim is education and helping the W&SS crew benefit from his experiences, his current approach may be inefficient. Persuasion requires effective communication with your target audience. If something doesn't work, after a certain point, we have to stop banging our heads against the wall, take a step back, and find another way.
 
If ya want to vent, I am fine with it. But you take it way further than that EVERY SINGLE FREAKIN TIME!

You want to know the REAL problem? You probably can't handle the truth.

Every time a SAR situation comes up on the forum, we have to hear how "Stupid" people are and how they are "unprepared" they are.

I defy any one of you to go back through the previous posts and find ANY that dealt with a lost hiker or someone in need that didn't degrade into the "stupid unprepared" BS. Please find me ONE POST where you reacted positively to the rescue and there was not a mention of how people are stupid and unprepared and you are "pissed off".

Mods, please feel free to shut this one down and all like it down because i'm sick of this.

As I said, I have the utmost respect for LEO's Firefighters, EMT's and the SAR groups, but really, if you want to vent, talk to your spouse from here on out because me, and it seems several others are tired of hearing it.

Try posting some positive comments along with the "it's my right to be pissed off at stupid people" ones. I think it will go much further for your credibility.
 
Every time a SAR situation comes up on the forum, we have to hear how "Stupid" people are and how they are "unprepared" they are.
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And how many of said situations are a result of preparedness? Hmm? How many? None that I have seen . The runner just the other day was an idiot. She admitted she was an idiot. We agreed. Get over it.

I defy any one of you to go back through the previous posts and find ANY that dealt with a lost hiker or someone in need that didn't degrade into the "stupid unprepared" BS. Please find me ONE POST where you reacted positively to the rescue and there was not a mention of how people are stupid and unprepared and you are "pissed off".
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Ok...simple enough...
dougo83 said:
I am not pissed because I had to wake up and go help out. Hell, I enjoyed working as a FF.
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Anything else?

Mods, please feel free to shut this one down and all like it down because i'm sick of this.
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Ya know...if it's gonna get you all butthurt, perhaps you shouldn't read the threads...You talk about "handling the truth" yet you cannot handle the fact that rescuers get pissed when their job is the DIRECT RESULT of a lack of preparation. Here's a thought: go out and get a clue...or better yet, until you have the balls to step into our shoes for even ONE DAY, don't you dare pass judgement on those who look danger in the face on a regular basis, put the needs of others far above their own and do it all for free.

As I said, I have the utmost respect for LEO's Firefighters, EMT's and the SAR groups, but really, if you want to vent, talk to your spouse from here on out because me, and it seems several others are tired of hearing it.
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Actually, it seems like it's basically one fool screaming and stamping feet.

Try posting some positive comments along with the "it's my right to be pissed off at stupid people" ones. I think it will go much further for your credibility.
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Have you made one positive contribution? In this thread? In any of the "offending" threads? On this board at all?
 
Yes, I have had plenty of positive comments on this forum. I think many of the posters are knowledgeable and very respectable. Most know WAY more than I ever will.

You just keep venting.

I'll ignore ya, no problem.
 
I have been involved in SAR for a number of years up here in Northern Canada.
Mantracking? Uh, what does that have to do with SAR? Tracking is following tracks of someone or something that is trying to avoid detection. IE. a deer, or an escaped prisoner.
SAR employs grid searches, air searches, gps navigation, dogs, coordination, communication, investigation, etc. I have never seen a connection between them. That said I could be missing something that was explained in the posts...
Mantracker is a cool tv show, though.

BTW, moss DOES give a north bearing. You just need to know what your looking for, and how to find it. No, it's not perfect, but it is pretty reliable. (except in rain forests - not so reliable in a rain forest like coastal BC)

C'mon folks, lets not start calling people names. Not hard to be respectful, even if we disagree.

For what it's worth, up here, everyone who goes out on the land is prepared. They have a lifetime of knowledge and skills on the land and water, and have basically lived in the wilderness most of their lives. Guess what? We still have a lot of SAR work here. Shit happens. Most of the time, weather changes or injuries are incurred. Sometimes snowmobiles go through the ice or boats capsize. People live through it because they are prepared and skilled. They make it home because they are rescued. No one, and I mean no one, can flip a boat and loose their kit 100 miles from town, and walk back at this time of year. They would stay put, get dry, make a shelter, and keep improving it until help came. The personal survival gear on their person will keep them alive, but they still need rescue. Even with all of your SAR training, none of you, me included, have the experience and skills to live off the land that most of these folks have. Many have lived off the land, completely, for much of their lives. Yet it happens.
When one of these folks is lost and needs SAR, no one calls them stupid.
 
Jim Craig said:
I have been involved in SAR for a number of years up here in Northern Canada.
Mantracking? Uh, what does that have to do with SAR? Tracking is following tracks of someone or something that is trying to avoid detection. IE. a deer, or an escaped prisoner.
SAR employs grid searches, air searches, gps navigation, dogs, coordination, communication, investigation, etc. I have never seen a connection between them. That said I could be missing something that was explained in the posts...
Mantracker is a cool tv show, though.

BTW, moss DOES give a north bearing. You just need to know what your looking for, and how to find it. No, it's not perfect, but it is pretty reliable. (except in rain forests - not so reliable in a rain forest like coastal BC)

C'mon folks, lets not start calling people names. Not hard to be respectful, even if we disagree.

For what it's worth, up here, everyone who goes out on the land is prepared. They have a lifetime of knowledge and skills on the land and water, and have basically lived in the wilderness most of their lives. Guess what? We still have a lot of SAR work here. Shit happens. Most of the time, weather changes or injuries are incurred. Sometimes snowmobiles go through the ice or boats capsize. People live through it because they are prepared and skilled. They make it home because they are rescued. No one, and I mean no one, can flip a boat and loose their kit 100 miles from town, and walk back at this time of year. They would stay put, get dry, make a shelter, and keep improving it until help came. The personal survival gear on their person will keep them alive, but they still need rescue. Even with all of your SAR training, none of you, me included, have the experience and skills to live off the land that most of these folks have. Many have lived off the land, completely, for much of their lives. Yet it happens.
When one of these folks is lost and needs SAR, no one calls them stupid.
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It's also not reliable in about 95% of the Northern Hemisphere. Can't speak on the Southern because of limited travel, but it doesn't hold true around here. I know...now someone is going to ask how I determined this. Well, outside of my travel in quite a few countries of this fine hemisphere, I have the research and opinions and lectures of biologists and botanists from The States, Canada, Britain, and Germany telling me so...
 
How reliable is when some say ants build their ant hills on south side? Is that those native legends that really don't hold any water?
 
thejamppa said:
How reliable is when some say ants build their ant hills on south side? Is that those native legends that really don't hold any water?
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On the south side of what? A body of water? A mountain? Trees? More info, please...
 
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