O.T. Just Punishment For Abusers Of Iraqi Prisoners...

The first thought that went through my thick scull when I heard about this was that someone had fixed the photos....you know computer generated "art"

I too hope the higher ups pay as well as those being charged if that is what has happened.....maybe we should repay an eye for an eye and parade them over the media in like attire.....no they might like that. This is a very sad occurence and there is no excuse for stuping to the level of other countries who treat there prisoners that way, but this is a media run war and this is an election year.

On third thought...take em all out and hang em. From the top down :mad:
 
Kismet-

I don't understand. Have Galbraith give me a call if he's still here on Earth. One usually has to have proof for keeping or changing one's mind.
Things change. Prison's haven't.


munk
 
Nasty is spot on about not abusing prisoners. There are rules and we Americans must take the high road and obey them. We want the same humane treatment for our own.

The person or persons responsible for this mess should be made to endure the abuse they inflicted on others, IMHO.
 
There are rules and we Americans must take the high road and obey them. We want the same humane treatment for our own>>>>>>>>>>>

We don't give the same treatment for our own. American jails are torture chambers. For politics, nothing is done. For politics, what happened in Iraq- something will be done. Meanwhile all over the Globe in every prison in every nation life will go on as before.

It is fascinating to me we can get the bastards responsible for abusing prisoners in Iraq, while ignore abuse here at home.

Politics and hypocrites. My new folk song.

And no, I don't think Nasy and Semper are hypocritical. Of course we have to do something about what happened in Iraq. It frankly shocked me.

munk
 
and there's the key, Semp: finding the ones responsible. "Plausible deniability, contract employees, chain of command circumvention, falling on his/her sword," all the rhetoric and loyalty behavior will obscure the responsibilty. You can almost guarantee that the poor bastid who takes the fall won't be the person/people responsible for the decision to systematically effect the behavior.

Munk? It's always seemed to me that we are more a rationalizing species, than rational one.

But that's just me.


Kis
 
Kis- I've always thought it was the gift of speech that fooled us into thinking we knew something.

Everyday prisoners are tortured in the US and I wonder why I was shocked at what happened to Iraqi prisoners overseas.

And we'll huff and puff and go right back to allowing business as usual here at home.

We'll say, "it wasn't me, man."


munk
 
The truth is that war is not something you can do right. IF you want to win quickly and have lasting peace, then you have to become a demon to your enemies and wipe him out.
There will never be away to win AND be nice.
The end result of all of this worry about the prisoners will be that no more prisoners will be taken. They will just be shot.
 
munk

I respectfully disagree.

I don't equate our military personnel with the hacks that run our prisons. That's a disservice to those in uniform.

There is a major difference in combatant prisoners. One can not compare them to the rapists, murderers, and assorted thugs in our jails.
 
Semper Fi-
You think the prisoners were all caught honorably fighting? From what I've heard and read, many ambush our people, blow up some civilians in the process, use a few handy human shields, and when all is lost- throw their weapons down- I surrender. I make this point to establish not all prisoners are the same. Edit- and many of these prisoners are those loyal to the Ba'th party and who raped and murdered Shites when in power, or who are outsiders brought in now by Al Queda and loyal to Binladen. Not all warriors are created equal.

Two- domestic prisons have tax frauds, drug smokers, EPA violaters, drunks, the insane, as well as the murderers and rapists you listed.

It should not matter why you were in prison- be it military or civilian- once inside you are entitled not to be tortured, raped, or killed.

Your answer is exactly the denial this society has. I have it too. Apparently, most nations on earth have it. I once brought this to the attention of the liberal enlightened group on a civil liberties forum. There, they were most concered with separating Church and State, making sure a woman had the right to choose up to and including giving birth, and the WOD; but the thread about prison abuse lasted about 6 posts. If this ACLU type group could care less, who will?

Life is about redemption. Even for prison guards doing stupid things. I think they will scapegoat the bottom rung, and I fear DannyinJapan has said something very chilling and with a high degree of truth.

I repeat that torture rape and murder need to be harshly and justly dealt with. I am not called to arms over a leash and a stupid photo.

munk
 
I try not to get involved in controversial posts and I think that authority sometimes leads to abuse by those exceptional few whether it be police, prison guards, etc. I think that these individuals need to be punished and don't have the right to abuse individual freedoms. When I see videos of Iraquis protesting the US, and killing and burning US citizens, I say just leave them and let another Sadaam take over and let them be. I know that they say that weapons of mass destruction haven't been found. But as unrational as it may be, all I think about is the 911 plane attacks and that this whole worldwide situation has bigger ramifications and started for a reason. We have to stand our ground and assert our power and show that attacks against the US will not be tolerated. Abusive, sadistic people make me sick and deserve punishment, but..... I wonder if any of these "prisoners" had any links or knowledge about 911 or other attacks. Or if they have trained with box cutters to cut the throats of innocents just trying to travel from one place to another with no thoughts of combat. Or have constructed car bombs to kill not just soldiers but innnocent bystanders. Or have supported Bin Laden, Al Quida, assorted terrorist groups, etc. If these were simple villagers rounded up for harrassment and abuse it's one thing, and an horrific abuse of authority. If they were potential killers and attackers of innocent US, British, Spanish, Israli, or any other human beings, then their treatment was too humane and a lot better than a US soldier in captivity would get!!!!!!
 
Does anyone have a general estimate of how many Iraqi POWs exist?

I know a whole lot of bad stuff can be done to a person without actually physically harming them, but the photos I have seen don't set off any alarms in my head. The factions in Iraq treat each other much worse than this. Those soldiers will be made examples of....but I'm afraid the lesson learned will be no more cameras.

Otto
 
The imposition of Moral and Ethical standards on war makes about as much sense as having moral and ethical standards for murder, rape, or theft.

It's easier to get the populace to support war if they can me made to believe it serves some higher purpose instead of facing the truth of what it really is - the manipulation of the lowest form of human instinct. The desire to kill other members of our species is as basic to human behavior as the need to reproduce.

War is the governmental manipulation of this instinct for political advantage or profit. This is not the same as defending oneself against an enemy attack. The last time the United States waged that kind of war was 1941.

Korea did not attack the United States, neither did Viet Nam, Cambodia, nor Iraq, not to mention a score of Central and South American and African nations that felt the wrath of U.S. military power over the last 50 years.

The U.S. government has been very successful in covering this war mongering with a cloak of Morality. Presently, we are in a "War Against Terror". I find that concept, and the fact that millions of Americans accept it to be truly terrifying.
 
The desire to kill other members of our species is as basic to human behavior as the need to reproduce.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the a.m. chuckle.

As for me, I would rather rather copulate with a lady than kill her.
 
Therein lies the rub, the other side of the sword of ecosystem supremacy that we wield crazily. After you fight yer way to the top of the food chain to become the dominant predator, what's left? Is it really any surprise that weapons are adapted from hunting/agriculture tools? Will gene research be able to eliminate the 'killer' gene? Can we stop killing fer even a sec? Is war just the latest evolutionary 'big game hunt?" Should we just save time and eat our young?

Uh, most of these are silly rhetorical questions.
 
Should we just save time and eat our young?
Click to expand...

Ya better get 'em young...once they hit about 4 years old, us old farts can't keep up with them, let alone catch 'em!
 
Don't worry about the little children; the Mountain Lions, Wolves, and Grizzlies need more to eat.

Well, I awake this AM, and find Benround thinks we've all been duped- what a shock.


Ferrous ponders if War is a big game of Hunt.


Situation normal.



munk
 
To some extent I am inclined to agree with Ben that we have been conned, you can't fight a 'war against terrorism' because you can not fight an idea. More to the point, it is not a war because a war has a beginning and an end, a declaration and a peace. Fighting terrorism can have none of these.


As for the prisoners, well I may never have been nearer a conflict zone than getting evacuated from various places whilst IRA bombs were detonated, but I know people who have and I am inclined to take their side with this. A mate of mine is an ex-Royal Marine, currently with the TA and recently returned from 'the sand box'. His view is simple, when you take a prisoner in the field you need to get information, you can do 'certain things' in order to get that information, i.e. search him, read any documentation he has and ask him where the rest of the enemy are. You may even be able to justify threats and ridicule, even the odd cuff round the head to create the impression that worse things are on the way if he doesn't tell you what you want to know. You do this in order to save your life and that of your comrades, in other words it can only be justified in a combat zone. If however someone is a prisoner of war, has been taken away from the combat zone and does not have the potential to save you or your comrades, thus you have no possible exscuse for treating the prisoner in any way you yourself would not wish to be treated.

Essentially this is the 'do unto others' principle, i.e. if you can justify the treatment on the basis that it could save your life fair enough, if not, then don't do anything that you would not wish to have done to you.
 
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