Ben Arown-Awile
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It's good to see that there are some Traditionalists left.Semper Fi said:
Copulation has always been a component of traditional warfare.
It's the "Rape" part of "Rape and Pillage".
O.T. Just Punishment For Abusers Of Iraqi Prisoners...
- Thread starter Drdan
- Start date
Copulation has always been a component of traditional warfare.
It's the "Rape" part of "Rape and Pillage".
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I guess the thing that really bothers me is that it seems that these pictures have "outraged" the world- but I didn't hear near as much outrage when four of our Blackwater Civies were drug through Fallujah. 
And here I was thinking the "war on terror" was a response to some kind of foreign attack that occurred on american soil.>>>>>>>>>>DAve K
The scope of the attack was sufficient to change the way the world does business, and has changed the nature of warfare. It is called WWlll because it is the future- the new Enemy. Terror now has the ability to end civilization as we know it today.
To be 'duped' there has to be a goal and motive for the 'lies'. There are none. What was Blair's and Bush's evil scheme then- to invade Iraq and find no WMD? Good plan? Of course not. These are the opening days of dealing with a new threat. Some will argue from percieved safety the threat is not new- it was just America's turn for what Europe already had experienced. This is simply wrong because of the scale possibilities of the attacks. They are enormous. Then we have the point that you can't fight an idea. This insight offers no alternative or action. All of this is new. Even in the Cold War with mutually assured destruction there were close moments, but rational people did not wish to murder the world and so Russia and the US did not allow that to happen. The terrorists we fight have nothing to lose. They are not rational. They use nations but do not belong to the nations- they have no home base any longer for us to assault.
We don't have enough troops, we have too many troops, we had no vaild plans for post war Iraq, Blaa blaa. The truth is it is all new. There is no way to have perfect plans for Life, let alone the fundemental crisis the World has now.
So we have photos of abuse of Iraqi prisoners. We'll focus on that- the minuetea in the hurricane. In twenty years a gal with a leash around the neck of single prisoner will be nothing, especially if London or Israel does not exist any longer.
Exagerated attention to prisoner abuse is like admiting everything bad that has ever happened to anyone anywhere in the world is all our fault. We abused prisoners so the Terror threat is all because of us. If Paris burns it will be our fault. The truth is that Blair and Bush seized the moral authority to act while others rationalized, lied, and hid from reality.
Blair's a liberal socialtist and Bush a 'nice' republican, neither my cup of tea- but when history called, they had guts.
munk
The scope of the attack was sufficient to change the way the world does business, and has changed the nature of warfare. It is called WWlll because it is the future- the new Enemy. Terror now has the ability to end civilization as we know it today.
To be 'duped' there has to be a goal and motive for the 'lies'. There are none. What was Blair's and Bush's evil scheme then- to invade Iraq and find no WMD? Good plan? Of course not. These are the opening days of dealing with a new threat. Some will argue from percieved safety the threat is not new- it was just America's turn for what Europe already had experienced. This is simply wrong because of the scale possibilities of the attacks. They are enormous. Then we have the point that you can't fight an idea. This insight offers no alternative or action. All of this is new. Even in the Cold War with mutually assured destruction there were close moments, but rational people did not wish to murder the world and so Russia and the US did not allow that to happen. The terrorists we fight have nothing to lose. They are not rational. They use nations but do not belong to the nations- they have no home base any longer for us to assault.
We don't have enough troops, we have too many troops, we had no vaild plans for post war Iraq, Blaa blaa. The truth is it is all new. There is no way to have perfect plans for Life, let alone the fundemental crisis the World has now.
So we have photos of abuse of Iraqi prisoners. We'll focus on that- the minuetea in the hurricane. In twenty years a gal with a leash around the neck of single prisoner will be nothing, especially if London or Israel does not exist any longer.
Exagerated attention to prisoner abuse is like admiting everything bad that has ever happened to anyone anywhere in the world is all our fault. We abused prisoners so the Terror threat is all because of us. If Paris burns it will be our fault. The truth is that Blair and Bush seized the moral authority to act while others rationalized, lied, and hid from reality.
Blair's a liberal socialtist and Bush a 'nice' republican, neither my cup of tea- but when history called, they had guts.
munk
- Joined
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Just to add my 'two cents worth' to this - as barbaric as the actions of these responsible parties were, I would like to point out that no reparations will be paid to the families of those four Americans who were drug through the streets after being burned and beaten to death. No apology has ever been issued for that, and no one will be court martialed for those actions.
Last year when Iraq violated several articles of the Geneva Convention, much as the US soldiers did to the Iraqis, Iraq did so as a matter of policy. Do a search for the name Richard Dale Storr. That is the name of a US Pilot who was shot down, captured, and beaten badly.
Now, as unpleasant as being in a pyramid of naked men sounds to me, it sounds preferable to being handcuffed, blindfolded, and beaten to the verge of death.
As were most Americans taken POW, Captain Storr was beaten daily, sometimes several times a day, for 33 days.
In the first three days I was there, I had become sick, and I was handcuffed and blindfolded. They had dislocated my shoulder and broken my nose, broken my left eardrum. I was on the ground and I was hoping that they were going to kill me."
- Capt. Richard Storr, USAF, March 24, 2003 in an interview with CBS News.
Nobody in this country is defending the actions of these soldiers who have embarrassed their country and whose conduct will likely result in the deaths of many. Troops in the field will be less likely to want to take prisoners and Iraqi jihadists and Fedayeen Saddam fighters will be less likely to surrender. This will be a big morale boost for them.
What European country is going to join the war against the United States over this issue? None that I see. The Lefties will be content to rub our nose in this, glorying in their own moral superiority. Unfortunately, all of the Arab autocracies are having a good laugh at the political damage done to Bush for actions that would be considered trivial in every Arab or Iranian prison on earth.
Last year when Iraq violated several articles of the Geneva Convention, much as the US soldiers did to the Iraqis, Iraq did so as a matter of policy. Do a search for the name Richard Dale Storr. That is the name of a US Pilot who was shot down, captured, and beaten badly.
Now, as unpleasant as being in a pyramid of naked men sounds to me, it sounds preferable to being handcuffed, blindfolded, and beaten to the verge of death.
As were most Americans taken POW, Captain Storr was beaten daily, sometimes several times a day, for 33 days.
In the first three days I was there, I had become sick, and I was handcuffed and blindfolded. They had dislocated my shoulder and broken my nose, broken my left eardrum. I was on the ground and I was hoping that they were going to kill me."
- Capt. Richard Storr, USAF, March 24, 2003 in an interview with CBS News.
Nobody in this country is defending the actions of these soldiers who have embarrassed their country and whose conduct will likely result in the deaths of many. Troops in the field will be less likely to want to take prisoners and Iraqi jihadists and Fedayeen Saddam fighters will be less likely to surrender. This will be a big morale boost for them.
What European country is going to join the war against the United States over this issue? None that I see. The Lefties will be content to rub our nose in this, glorying in their own moral superiority. Unfortunately, all of the Arab autocracies are having a good laugh at the political damage done to Bush for actions that would be considered trivial in every Arab or Iranian prison on earth.
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No one has asked:
" What were the events that led up to the imtimidation and humilation of the Iraqi POW's? "
" Did it go farther, to the point of physical abuse? "
" What had they done to be incarcerated? "
I'll grant you that intimidation and humiliation can do mental harm. I'm not aguing that it was right. But most people do what they feel is indicated under the circumstances. What happened to make the guards feel justified in what they did? You and I would never do such things. Balogna - I suspect if we were in the same conditions we wouldn't do as the guards did. I also suspect that while we wouldn't commit such acts, we'd as sure as He-double-el probably want to do them.
" What were the events that led up to the imtimidation and humilation of the Iraqi POW's? "
" Did it go farther, to the point of physical abuse? "
" What had they done to be incarcerated? "
I'll grant you that intimidation and humiliation can do mental harm. I'm not aguing that it was right. But most people do what they feel is indicated under the circumstances. What happened to make the guards feel justified in what they did? You and I would never do such things. Balogna - I suspect if we were in the same conditions we wouldn't do as the guards did. I also suspect that while we wouldn't commit such acts, we'd as sure as He-double-el probably want to do them.
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I posted this in another thread. Didn't feel like re-typing it.
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I don't know if those pics were part of a psy-ops campaign or not.
One thing is certain, if people think that the rather "frat-boy initiation" antics perpetrated by a bunch of poorly supervised troops is "torture" then they clearly have had their heads up their rears for the last several years.
The other thing to keep in mind is that the people in those Iraqi prisons are not in there because they were singing too loud in church.
American troops in Iraq are treated every day to having their buddies blown up or ambushed, and the treatment of Americans and others at the hands of Iraqi insurgents is enough to build a pretty high level of hate. How soon everyone seems to have forgotten the ambush and slaying of four civilians and their mutilation and display by dancing and cheering Iraqis.
How quickly people have forgotten the slaying of other American civilians, and the execution slaying of Fabrizio Quattrochi.
Folks, unless you've been in a situation like that, it is real hard to understand how one's view of the "enemy" changes.
I am not offering this as an excuse, but as an explanation.
The American troops who engaged in these rather harmless (let's be realistic and keep this in perspective, shall we?) antics were acting in violation of the Geneva Convention and The Laws of Land Warfare. They were also acting no doubt, in violation of standard US Army policy. You will see virtually all of the participants in this overblown farce, court-martialed. There will be a lot of jail time served, and deservedly so.
But again, let's keep this in perspective. We have over 150,000 troops in Iraq, and the US military has bent over backwards to avoid civilian casualties and a lot of Americans have died in their efforts to follow the Hague and Geneva Conventions, and the Laws of Land Warfare.
In every group of people, you are going to have those who, when given power, will abuse it. And when you put that in the context of enemy combatants who may well have just killed fellow soldiers, it is an ugly combination.
You will see the people who participated in these acts be criminally charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and most, if not all will spend the next several years in Leavenworth, Kansas or Mannheim Military Prison in Germany. They will be dishonorably discharged when their tours are up.
Their first line supervisors will be charged as well and unless they have some really special extenuating and mitigating circumstances, they will be convicted as well, and even if not convicted, their careers are essentially over, and given the US military's "Up or Out" policy, they will be booted out within a few years.
Their Junior Officers will be court-martialed. Some will be convicted, but all will will have a taint on their records and I can assure you that these men and women will also be leaving the military under less than honorable conditions.
Their middle-grade officers will be investigated. Many will be court-martialed. Some might serve time in prison. All of their careers are basically dead in the water.
There does come a point though at which you cannot hold a senior commander DIRECTLY responsible for the actions of his or her subordinates. We Americans need to understand that. The notion I see put forth by some that everyone in the chain in the command all the way up to Don Rumsfeld must be cashiered is nothing short of political decimation. It is an unfair demand that goes counter to not just our legal system, but our culture as well.
As long as there are human beings on the "sharp end" of any conflict, there will be those who cannot handle their responsibility and power. No level of supervision and no amount of daily or even hourly reports and no amount of bureaucratic policy will keep every human being at the lowest levels from doing something hateful, stupid or negligent.
Don
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I don't know if those pics were part of a psy-ops campaign or not.
One thing is certain, if people think that the rather "frat-boy initiation" antics perpetrated by a bunch of poorly supervised troops is "torture" then they clearly have had their heads up their rears for the last several years.
The other thing to keep in mind is that the people in those Iraqi prisons are not in there because they were singing too loud in church.
American troops in Iraq are treated every day to having their buddies blown up or ambushed, and the treatment of Americans and others at the hands of Iraqi insurgents is enough to build a pretty high level of hate. How soon everyone seems to have forgotten the ambush and slaying of four civilians and their mutilation and display by dancing and cheering Iraqis.
How quickly people have forgotten the slaying of other American civilians, and the execution slaying of Fabrizio Quattrochi.
Folks, unless you've been in a situation like that, it is real hard to understand how one's view of the "enemy" changes.
I am not offering this as an excuse, but as an explanation.
The American troops who engaged in these rather harmless (let's be realistic and keep this in perspective, shall we?) antics were acting in violation of the Geneva Convention and The Laws of Land Warfare. They were also acting no doubt, in violation of standard US Army policy. You will see virtually all of the participants in this overblown farce, court-martialed. There will be a lot of jail time served, and deservedly so.
But again, let's keep this in perspective. We have over 150,000 troops in Iraq, and the US military has bent over backwards to avoid civilian casualties and a lot of Americans have died in their efforts to follow the Hague and Geneva Conventions, and the Laws of Land Warfare.
In every group of people, you are going to have those who, when given power, will abuse it. And when you put that in the context of enemy combatants who may well have just killed fellow soldiers, it is an ugly combination.
You will see the people who participated in these acts be criminally charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and most, if not all will spend the next several years in Leavenworth, Kansas or Mannheim Military Prison in Germany. They will be dishonorably discharged when their tours are up.
Their first line supervisors will be charged as well and unless they have some really special extenuating and mitigating circumstances, they will be convicted as well, and even if not convicted, their careers are essentially over, and given the US military's "Up or Out" policy, they will be booted out within a few years.
Their Junior Officers will be court-martialed. Some will be convicted, but all will will have a taint on their records and I can assure you that these men and women will also be leaving the military under less than honorable conditions.
Their middle-grade officers will be investigated. Many will be court-martialed. Some might serve time in prison. All of their careers are basically dead in the water.
There does come a point though at which you cannot hold a senior commander DIRECTLY responsible for the actions of his or her subordinates. We Americans need to understand that. The notion I see put forth by some that everyone in the chain in the command all the way up to Don Rumsfeld must be cashiered is nothing short of political decimation. It is an unfair demand that goes counter to not just our legal system, but our culture as well.
As long as there are human beings on the "sharp end" of any conflict, there will be those who cannot handle their responsibility and power. No level of supervision and no amount of daily or even hourly reports and no amount of bureaucratic policy will keep every human being at the lowest levels from doing something hateful, stupid or negligent.
Don
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Drdan said:Recent news reports suggest that coverage of the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. and British troops has led to an increase in violence against U.S. and allied military members... Is just punishment merely the loss of one's rank, or loss of a job in the military for those found guilty?
Dan
I don't buy the notion that increased violence resulted from the release of the pics. Violence was at an all time post-war high. The news with its decided leftward slant has an agenda and they don't hide that very well in my opinion.
As far as punishment goes - show me the mutilated bodies of the Iraqi prisoners. I see abuse, but I don't see torture or anything that merits time in jail - but I suspect that many of those who participated will be reduced in rank, fined, jailed, then dishonorably discharged for what is nothing worse than you might find in a college fraternity initiation rite.
Don
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Roadrunner said:
Do you really think a five to ten year PRISON sentence is appropriate punishment for this? Seems a bit long to me. Criminals seldom get sentences that long for physical assault and battery.
Don
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Nasty said:
Hey, Nasty;
Sorry, amigo, I disagree. An enemy does not cease being an enemy just because he's in prison. If you doubt me about this, I recommend you step into one of their cell-blocks unarmed and with no back-up. Just make sure you leave us the contact information for your next of kin.
They are still the enemy. But they also happen to be prisoners. The two classifications are not mutually exclusive.
Don
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munk said:
You are right. 100% right.
I too have been called Right Wing. And like you, basically libertarian. I used to be a Democrat of the John F. Kennedy stripe before the Democratic Party got hijacked with socialists like John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, et al.
I'm a Republican now my grudging default, because I know that the Libertarian candidates cannot win, and even if they won, they would be unable to exert pressure on Congress.
Someday maybe.........
Don
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Dave K said:
I agree. It puzzles and amuzes me to see who the loudest detractors are - liberal Democrats. And some of them with very sordid backgrounds themselves.
Don
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Drdan said:It does seem obvious that the news coverage has caused ire in the Arab world, including that part of it called Iraq. If some individuals who previously were not compelled to take up arms do so now because of the coverage, propoganda or otherwise, more of our soldiers will be placed in harm's way.
Being that the actions of a few guards and their keepers might exacerbate the situation for some allied soldiers in Iraq, I was interested in knowing if loss of rank or being booted out of the military was fitting, or if more severe disciplinary actions were in order. I personally feel that after a fair trial, jail time might be in order. The higher ups should also be held responsible; I don't just want a few scapegoats to be punished.
The incidents are truly unfortunate, and just complicate the difficult job our troops have in getting Iraq stable enough to become governable by the Iraqis themselves.
Dan
I agree. It is also why you will see some pretty sharp and stiff action by the Military Courts in this case.
The fact is though, it really matters little what the outcome of the courts martial will be - those who dislike the US would not be satisfied regardless of the penalty inflicted.
The best and only thing we can do, is to make sure that the policies we have in place are consistent with over-arching documents; that they are followed to the best of our ability to enforce it; and that wrongdoers are tried and sentenced fairly based on the crimes and the evidence, and not on political or world pressure.
No one will be happy with the outcome, and that is a fact everyone had best be prepared for.
In the meantime, the war goes on.
Don
I apologize for not reading all coments and further for actually not being in the position to make statements concerning this "problem" never being involved in miltary acts or training. I ll try to make this short because english is not my native language.
"Soldiers" are trained to kill. It s hard to imagine that they will make a big difference between killing someone for a nation or for an information as far as they arent familliar with E.Kant.
What was everybody thinking
Those who think that this pictures are shocking aint seen nothing yet.
War is a demonstration for Human beings not being able to learn from their lessons.
When i see those pictures it reminds me of a friend which mentioned that the world needs only one Army which will fight "War" and which is controlled by all Govnerments (there should be only one anyway).
I hopefully didn t offend sumone with my rather unqualified thougths.
"Soldiers" are trained to kill. It s hard to imagine that they will make a big difference between killing someone for a nation or for an information as far as they arent familliar with E.Kant.
What was everybody thinking
Those who think that this pictures are shocking aint seen nothing yet.
War is a demonstration for Human beings not being able to learn from their lessons.
When i see those pictures it reminds me of a friend which mentioned that the world needs only one Army which will fight "War" and which is controlled by all Govnerments (there should be only one anyway).
I hopefully didn t offend sumone with my rather unqualified thougths.
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munk said:
As far as torture and murders go, I guess with me it would depend on who was being tortured and killed. There are at least three different kinds of people in those Iraqi prisons:
1. Innocents caught up in the wrong place at the wrong time. It would not be right to harm these fellows.
2. Just plain old ordinary "joes" who are simply fighting to defend their homes and who generally try to follow the Laws of Land Warfare. It would not be right to harm them either.
3. The real dirtbag slimeballs who violate every law of "civilized warfare" (sic). It is these fellows I don't have much of a problem having tortured and then executed when we're done with them.
But, my personal philosophy is to err on the side of "benefit of the doubt". I'd rather risk some rat-b*st*rd getting away without being tortured and shot, than to have an innocent subjected to it.
As far as non-existant borders go vis a vis voting libertarian, that is one reason of many I do not vote Libertarian. I am a libertarian (note small letter "L"). I generally feel government screws up more things than it does well. But having lived the last 15 years in southern California I see the cost of unchecked (illegal) immigration.
I wouldn't shed a tear for those who blew apart civilians and then threw their weapons down in surrender, but that's not the point. The point is we treat everyone the same- because otherwise, we'd ever be able to draw the line again.
As for Ca. I did my time. The good news about large cities and failed social funding is the new breed of libertarian coming out of them. Anyone with half a brain can see what is going wrong- except hollywood, of course.
munk
As for Ca. I did my time. The good news about large cities and failed social funding is the new breed of libertarian coming out of them. Anyone with half a brain can see what is going wrong- except hollywood, of course.
munk
Ben Arown-Awile
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Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians - all the same to me. Unfortunately I have to put up with the various types of self-serving stupidity, ignorance, and nonsense from these and other tribes of morons, but ultimately, the only one I trust to make decisions that directly affect my life is me.
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From what I've read in this thread, and were it true, Pvt. Jessica Lynch would been raped and murdered by now by here Iraqi captors...and some folks would call it justified...hey, she had a gun, right? She was part of an invading force, right? She killed some Iraqis right before being captured by the same...some rationalists would say, hey she should be killed when she ran outta ammo and hit the dirt.