I don't know if wrapping yourself in the flag while condoning blatant theft is going to gain any traction here. Let's ask the other guys who love ripoff artists what they think.
Oh wait, can't do that. They're gone.
On clones, by genre, a thesis
- Thread starter gadgetgeek
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I don't know if wrapping yourself in the flag while condoning blatant theft is going to gain any traction here. Let's ask the other guys who love ripoff artists what they think.
Oh wait, can't do that. They're gone.
I am not a fan of clones or counterfeits but I do own a few that came in trades. Most have the real company name on them like LDT, or Sanremu. I do not carry them, they are used as house beaters. I find it hard to cut up boxes with a $200.00 knife. It is amazing what you get for the money but that still does not entice me to buy or carry them. This situation is the same as drug imports. If we as a whole do not buy them their would not be a problem. The only way to stop the clones that I could think of would be to put Tariffs on all knife imports. and start. When I was in the diamond business there was a 2% Tariff on all imports and you had to go to a broker to get it released. I also realized that the E-packet that they send the knives is subsidized by good old Uncle Sam. To me that was shocking but also not surprised. On that note I bid all of you a good day.
You are an idiot, where in my post did I condone "theft"?
You're condoning theft by your tone in this thread; and in fact by the user name you've chosen.
Warning issued.
That's the dumbest statement hahaha that's so funny, I didn't know there is a tone in typed words.
Instead of drawing conclusions from unsaid words, why don't you put down some cash to support this forum by buying a paid membership first?
Otherwise you just stand to portrait yourself as a righteous prick.
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And yet no one seems to care when Blackjack rips off Randall's designs. I see lots of companies copying certain styles that have been copied so many times they have become public domain. For example Spartan knives Fairburn Sykes style knife.
At what point does a design become public property?
At what point does a design become public property?
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Typed language can absolutely have a tone.
Lol GanzoFan they're saying your name itself is supporting clones.
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That's absurd. I suppose if I had "Benchmade" as part of my user name, I would be condoning poor quality control.
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Fortunately alot of Chinese makers are learning they can make good money creating original designs of high quality or building comissioned knives.
Sometimes I worry that they will take that money and put some of it into a counterfeiting side to their business. Like Kevin John who makes original designs under the Venom label, does work for CKF and builds clones. I'm not sure they are still building clones though.
Sometimes I worry that they will take that money and put some of it into a counterfeiting side to their business. Like Kevin John who makes original designs under the Venom label, does work for CKF and builds clones. I'm not sure they are still building clones though.
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This is my concern/problem with all the Chinese makers it seems only a few factories actually do the work and do it for others or under multiple names and you have the side that is doing quality work with new designs and then the side stealing designs and selling off other peoples work. The even bigger concern is when they are contracted with to make a knife for someone else they get the designs and can, and I think in a few cases have, stolen the design they were given to make their knockoff.
To sum up I like what I have seen but am not ready to give them a great big hug and frolic through the meadows with them.
I don't condone counterfeits being sold as originals. That practice hurts a lot of people, both buyers and makers. Similar but obviously different knives is another matter.
The reality is that very little in the knife world is actual theft. There is very little design ownership. There isn't a knife made today that doesn't in some way use past designs.
So now we have to define how much similarity is ok and at what point it becomes wrong. That's variable for everyone. There seems to be so much emotion in the folding knife hobby that many lose touch with reality of others. And I get it, we buy expensive chunks of metal for many reasons but mostly because we like them and want to, based on a lot of emotion.
I think the biggest message that the China market has shown is that a lot of designers/makers are out of touch with the market. Hinderer is one that defies this. Rather than only make $400+ knives he contracts out a range from $25 up to full custom in house options. It's a lot easier to convince someone not emotionally attached to this hobby to grab a Cryo over an XM clone as there is an option in the clone price range that gives you a taste of Hinderer design.
There are plenty of legitimate companies that can produce a budget knife and collaborate with a designer that those custom or semi-custom makers getting upset have ways to fight it. We aren't going to change people who don't care about semi-custom to custom quality over price. So the answer is to come out with a price point collaboration that makes it hard on the fakes to be worth it.
The reality is that very little in the knife world is actual theft. There is very little design ownership. There isn't a knife made today that doesn't in some way use past designs.
So now we have to define how much similarity is ok and at what point it becomes wrong. That's variable for everyone. There seems to be so much emotion in the folding knife hobby that many lose touch with reality of others. And I get it, we buy expensive chunks of metal for many reasons but mostly because we like them and want to, based on a lot of emotion.
I think the biggest message that the China market has shown is that a lot of designers/makers are out of touch with the market. Hinderer is one that defies this. Rather than only make $400+ knives he contracts out a range from $25 up to full custom in house options. It's a lot easier to convince someone not emotionally attached to this hobby to grab a Cryo over an XM clone as there is an option in the clone price range that gives you a taste of Hinderer design.
There are plenty of legitimate companies that can produce a budget knife and collaborate with a designer that those custom or semi-custom makers getting upset have ways to fight it. We aren't going to change people who don't care about semi-custom to custom quality over price. So the answer is to come out with a price point collaboration that makes it hard on the fakes to be worth it.
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This topic somehow always piques my interest.
I suspect this is partly because I don't live in the US and thus do not have as much of a "Made in the US" fetish as some other people.
Topics like this pretty much come up in every thread about knives made in china that are not from one of the "big" knife companies (Spyderco, Benchmade, CRK, Kershaw/Kai, etc). And one of the MAIN critisisms is always "IP theft" or "Stealing of designs".
So based on one of these threads I delved into that subject a little. So here's what I learned about Intellectual Property (it might seem vain to quote myself...but I'm really just doing it to save myself the hassle of looking everything up and retyping again...so I might seem vain but I'm just lazy.)
(ps, the original thread this was posted in was about a Shirogorov clone.)
I suspect this is partly because I don't live in the US and thus do not have as much of a "Made in the US" fetish as some other people.
Topics like this pretty much come up in every thread about knives made in china that are not from one of the "big" knife companies (Spyderco, Benchmade, CRK, Kershaw/Kai, etc). And one of the MAIN critisisms is always "IP theft" or "Stealing of designs".
So based on one of these threads I delved into that subject a little. So here's what I learned about Intellectual Property (it might seem vain to quote myself...but I'm really just doing it to save myself the hassle of looking everything up and retyping again...so I might seem vain but I'm just lazy.)
(ps, the original thread this was posted in was about a Shirogorov clone.)
I disagree with buying fakes.
At the same time I see a lot of "legal terms" being thrown around like IP theft. Patent stealing. Copyrights and Trademarks....
Before you use this term...you might want to look up what it actually means and what it's limits are.
Here's a short summary.
This is just an umbrella term. Please note...unless a design has been put down somewhere on paper or registered....it is NOT officially (legally) someone's Intellectual property.
looks like this could be applied to knife designs. However only if it's been registered. If nothing was ever officially registered as copyrighted...then this does not seem to apply.
Once again....a patent has to be applied for and registered. And even then it's only applicable for a limited time.patent
ˈpat(ənt,ˈpeɪt(ə
noun
1.
a government authority or licence conferring a right or title for a set period, especially the sole right to exclude others from making, using, or selling an invention.
"he took out a patent for an improved steam hammer"
synonyms: copyright, licence, legal protection, right, performing right, permit, privilege, charter, franchise, registered trademark
"a company has since taken out a patent on the chemical"
adjective
1.
obtain a patent for (an invention).
"an invention is not your own until it is patented"
This shows that yes, you can have an unregistered trademark...however in order for it to be legally applicable it needs to be registered somewhere.
To my knowledge very few knife designs and features have actually been registered as intellectual property. There are a few yes. But most are not.
Are there any in this Shiro clone? I don't know.
I however suspect that the guys at Shirogorov (and several other companies) do not hold patents, trademarks or copyrights on Bearings....blade shapes....handle materials....milling patterns and even overal design.
Some might....but I suspect a lot don't.
As such it's highly unlikely that the companies copying those designs or features are actually doing something illegal.
Morally wrong? Maybe...but that's a whole different discussion. Especially when you're having that discussion concerning a completely different culture that's being raised to "Learn by copying the master" from the time they're infants.
TL,DR: Chances are that the copying companies are not doing anything illegal. And that morally from THEIR point of view they're not doing anything wrong.
Doesn't mean we have to like it though
Armadew
Reisloafer
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"As such it's highly unlikely that the companies copying those designs or features are actually doing something illegal.
Morally wrong? Maybe...but that's a whole different discussion."
No it isn't. It very much part of the discussion. Stealing is morally wrong, even if you sneak around the law.
Morally wrong? Maybe...but that's a whole different discussion."
No it isn't. It very much part of the discussion. Stealing is morally wrong, even if you sneak around the law.
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Stealing is stealing. And stealing is theft and theft is illegal.
If it's not illegal...and you didn't actually take anything from another person. How's that stealing?
I'm not making the statement that cloning is ok. (or that it's not for that matter).
I recently finished listening to a book called "Poorly made in China". Which delves much MUCH more into the cultural differences between China and the western world. And if you start doing that (and gaining a little bit of understanding about China and it's culture) you quickly find out that it's not so black and white as it might seem.
You can complain about theft all day long and it'll never change a thing. Like it was said by several people in this thread you probably won't even see all the clones/copies/homages/whateveryoucallthem that people own. Because it's not about pride of ownership and they won't show them off here.
At the same time there are some companies (Spyderco, Kershaw, A.G. Russell, Begg (Steelcraft) and others) that recognise the skill that can be used over there and they're investing in these places.
It's a complex subject, that deserves to be treated on a case by case basis, rather than a blanket "That knife looks like another knife! It's theft!" statement that so many enjoy throwing out there.
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Sad thing is some of these clones are made better than originals with better fit and finish and materials.I have seen clone of rat1-2 and they have better fit and finish and the blade steel is better than original.
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threads here beg to differ with you. Often the clones are worse in every way. You saying this without clear proof is just wrong. You are skewing people into thinking about buying clones on a hunch you have. When threads here on this forum show proof other wise.
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Taking another companies 'design language' is wrong no matter how you toss it. Not against the law. They do it for their own profit. It's how they do it. What's worse is other countries and consumers from America buy them to sell them and or buy them to collect or use knowing full well they are someone else's design language. Thinking they are the same thing in many cases. And often times getting sold off as the same thing regardless of logos and what not.
They don't have a right to sell someone else's design language. It may be legal, but its not right.
They don't have a right to sell someone else's design language. It may be legal, but its not right.
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