Power hammers

I hear you. Even without the 20% VAT, when they sold the 75 lbs Kuhn like Murat had over here, it cost almost twice as much as your hammer. :eek: The Tom Clark modified Say Maks were kind of the preferred self contained hammer in that class back then. The 50kg model was selling for like $10K when the Kuhn was like $14K
erik markman said:
I am talking about old hammers that to me where too far gone in my opinion.
I worked with a Kuhn once that was really nice but I can't spend Kuhn money.
Let's say I am not an old hammer guy.
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Has anyone worked with one of Ken Zitur's 75 pounders?
 
jdm61 said:
Has anyone worked with one of Ken Zitur's 75 pounders?
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A local friend of mine is expecting one to be delivered next week. I've considered buying one a few times, wish I had before the price went up.

The design is solid, based on one of the best pound for pound hitting hammers ever made, the 2nd gen 75lb Bull hammer. The question will be whether the control system Ken has adapted (which I can't wait to tear apart, and my buddy has promised to let me), will give the same performance. I've not used his controls yet, from what I've seen and heard, they probably offer as good or better control than just about any other, and supposedly they're quite easy on the CFM consumption, although maybe not as good as the Ironkiss were. The big question is, can it still be cranked up and tuned to make metal it's bitch? I'm anxious to find out, and I'll report back once I do.

It only has to be half as good as the Bull's were to be the best value in utility hammers out there though.
 
Dang. The 75 lb'er is like $5100 now. How much was it before? From what I have seen in the videos, control appears to be the hammer's long suit. I am wondering about how much whack it has? As for the control system, are you contemplating possibly buying the add-on kit for your Bull if you like it? I originally thought the control system was kind of odd, but it does look relatively simple which is never a bad thing for people like me who are not so mechanically inclined.
javand said:
A local friend of mine is expecting one to be delivered next week. I've considered buying one a few times, wish I had before the price went up.

The design is solid, based on one of the best pound for pound hitting hammers ever made, the 2nd gen 75lb Bull hammer. The question will be whether the control system Ken has adapted (which I can't wait to tear apart, and my buddy has promised to let me), will give the same performance. I've not used his controls yet, from what I've seen and heard, they probably offer as good or better control than just about any other, and supposedly they're quite easy on the CFM consumption, although maybe not as good as the Ironkiss were. The big question is, can it still be cranked up and tuned to make metal it's bitch? I'm anxious to find out, and I'll report back once I do.

It only has to be half as good as the Bull's were to be the best value in utility hammers out there though.
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jdm61 said:
Dang. The 75 lb'er is like $5100 now. How much was it before? From what I have seen in the videos, control appears to be the hammer's long suit. I am wondering about how much whack it has? As for the control system, are you contemplating possibly buying the add-on kit for your Bull if you like it? I originally thought the control system was kind of odd, but it does look relatively simple which is never a bad thing for people like me who are not so mechanically inclined.
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That's the big question here also. I need super fine control less than I need my hammer to hit hard and fast as hell personally, although now that I've got the Bradley running for drawing, my mind may change.

It was $4500 previously, if I recall correctly, but I think demand has been very high.

The control kit is expensive, and I'm pretty certain I have a good idea how it works already from photos, so I'm considering making my own, although if it seems like it'll cost me more in parts and time than I can just buy one, I will.
 
javand said:
That's the big question here also. I need super fine control less than I need my hammer to hit hard and fast as hell personally, although now that I've got the Bradley running for drawing, my mind may change.

It was $4500 previously, if I recall correctly, but I think demand has been very high.

The control kit is expensive, and I'm pretty certain I have a good idea how it works already from photos, so I'm considering making my own, although if it seems like it'll cost me more in parts and time than I can just buy one, I will.
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most of the videos show them doing cool artist blacksmith tricks as opposed to brute force bladesmithong. There is one clip where the hammer is moving rather quickly, but just that one. My other concern are dies. Much of what I saw either used flat or combo does or some kind of tooling.
 
jdm61 said:
most of the videos show them doing cool artist blacksmith tricks as opposed to brute force bladesmithong. There is one clip where the hammer is moving rather quickly, but just that one. My other concern are dies. Much of what I saw either used flat or combo does or some kind of tooling.
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Yeah, I had the same concern regarding power. Combo dies with an aggressive fullering side (v-radius, not half-round), are actually really great for making damascus (weld on flat, draw with V, then planish with flat), and with properly equipped top tooling, you can be very efficient for forging blades, however, gentle radius dies are optimal IMO or forging blades, and still good for making steel.

The trick is deciding which is the priority.

In a perfect world, I'd like to have a hammer dedicated to forging blades and general, free forging, with gentle radiused dies. Changing dies is time consuming no matter what the system, and always necessary at an inopportune time. It's definitely the sort of thing you want to have dedicated setups for, if only the costs weren't so prohibitive. =\
 
So all things considered would your rather have a 50LB tire hammer or a 20ton press. I was going down the path of a press but i can't shake the experience I had at salems shop running his LG. I had never ran a hammer before and it was quite fun. It seamed with my very limited time on it that his hammer moved steel faster then his press. I guess what I'm wondering is can a hammer do everything a press can but a press can't do everything a hammer can do. Seams like a hammer is the more versatile machine
 
JTknives said:
So all things considered would your rather have a 50LB tire hammer or a 20ton press. I was going down the path of a press but i can't shake the experience I had at salems shop running his LG. I had never ran a hammer before and it was quite fun. It seamed with my very limited time on it that his hammer moved steel faster then his press. I guess what I'm wondering is can a hammer do everything a press can but a press can't do everything a hammer can do. Seams like a hammer is the more versatile machine
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I have a press in the 15-20 range and still want a small to medium size hammer. :D IMO, a press does not reach the level of do-all until you get into something like one of those big "four poster" presses that run 40+ tons. Watching one of those smash a 2 x 3 x 6 billet down 30% or more with flat dies on the first welding pass is pretty impressive.
 
javand said:
Yeah, I had the same concern regarding power. Combo dies with an aggressive fullering side (v-radius, not half-round), are actually really great for making damascus (weld on flat, draw with V, then planish with flat), and with properly equipped top tooling, you can be very efficient for forging blades, however, gentle radius dies are optimal IMO or forging blades, and still good for making steel.

The trick is deciding which is the priority.

In a perfect world, I'd like to have a hammer dedicated to forging blades and general, free forging, with gentle radiused dies. Changing dies is time consuming no matter what the system, and always necessary at an inopportune time. It's definitely the sort of thing you want to have dedicated setups for, if only the costs weren't so prohibitive. =\
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I have seen those gently reduced flat dies referred to as "Calirfnonia drawing dies" They seem like the best thing to have if you can only have one set. Kind of flat in the middle if you need it, but radiused enough that you not only draw but spread and "pinch" bevels.If you had enough hitting power, one of those on the top and a wide flat on the bottom might work.
 
JTknives said:
So all things considered would your rather have a 50LB tire hammer or a 20ton press. I was going down the path of a press but i can't shake the experience I had at salems shop running his LG. I had never ran a hammer before and it was quite fun. It seamed with my very limited time on it that his hammer moved steel faster then his press. I guess what I'm wondering is can a hammer do everything a press can but a press can't do everything a hammer can do. Seams like a hammer is the more versatile machine
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I've come to the conclusion I can't live without both (hence the thread) but don't regret building the press first. ETA: I don't regret it but if I could do it over, now that I've actually got some time on a power hammer, I would have maybe gone with the hammer first. The biggest limitation on my press is the squish vs. smack and the challenge with drawing width vs length though I think I can get around the latter with some more dies.
 
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kuraki said:
@Salem Straub I just found a thread where you were contemplating it because Mecha was doing it, though it seems he was still using his clutch.

I would think with the right settings you could do it clutchless, with maybe an oversized motor to account for loss of power at lower hertz and a mild reduction via pulleys. Say a 5hp 1750 RPM motor to drive a 50-75 pound hammer with a 3:1 reduction between the motor shaft and jack shaft at 30hz max should be about 291 BPM, and should still be able to start quickly enough.

I don't Facebook unfortunately.
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That's right, I was still using the clutch along with the VFD. The VFD was nice to limit the top speed of the hammer so I could put it right at the sweet spot and just mindlessly press the clutch to the floor without slipping it and trying to find that sweet spot every heat. This was important because of forging ti alloy which can only be pushed a little bit at a time per hit or risk permanent damage to the billet. My 50 lb LG was also very janky (it wasn't tight) and could hit the billet way to hard at full speed. A nice tight tuned trip hammer is a lot easier to control with the clutch.

The VFD was also nice or converting 1 phase to 3 phase, or running a 220 motor on 110 voltage.

A trip hammer with a locked clutch and a tig foot pedal sounds really really nice! :O

My new hammer is going to be a wheel with three sledge hammers that will spin and rain hammer blows down on the anvil.
 
jdm61 said:
I have seen those gently reduced flat dies referred to as "Calirfnonia drawing dies" They seem like the best thing to have if you can only have one set. Kind of flat in the middle if you need it, but radiused enough that you not only draw but spread and "pinch" bevels.If you had enough hitting power, one of those on the top and a wide flat on the bottom might work.
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Yeah, but if you've got the power, flat dies will do most any work you want. They are shitty for forging bevels though. Matched gentle radiuses are the best for that.

Looks like my buddy's mz75 is being delivered tomorrow, I'm going to go check it out this weekend. I'll report back with some impressions.

May buy one myself if I like it. I regret not pickup up an Ironkiss when I had the opportunity. I imagine the price of these hammers to continue raising, until Ken gets burned out and stops making them, as typically is the case.
 
javand said:
Yeah, but if you've got the power, flat dies will do most any work you want. They are shitty for forging bevels though. Matched gentle radiuses are the best for that.

Looks like my buddy's mz75 is being delivered tomorrow, I'm going to go check it out this weekend. I'll report back with some impressions.

May buy one myself if I like it. I regret not pickup up an Ironkiss when I had the opportunity. I imagine the price of these hammers to continue raising, until Ken gets burned out and stops making them, as typically is the case.
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The problem with gear like this is that it probably starts off as a hobby and once the builder gets a lot of orders he realizes that he probably isn't making enough. if you consider that both the Zitur and Iron Kiss hammers were US built machines priced the same or less than the US price for Chinese and Turkish built stuff, you can see that nobody is getting rich.
 
jdm61 said:
The problem with gear like this is that it probably starts off as a hobby and once the builder gets a lot of orders he realizes that he probably isn't making enough. if you consider that both the Zitur and Iron Kiss hammers were US built machines priced the same or less than the US price for Chinese and Turkish built stuff, you can see that nobody is getting rich.
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None of us know anything about that! :D
 
So is 50Lb about the practical limit for home built hammers. It seams like that's about all there is when it comes to plans. I mean I could probably come up with something that moves 100lbs up and down but I'm not a hammer builder so looking to stick with proven designs.
 
JTknives said:
So is 50Lb about the practical limit for home built hammers. It seams like that's about all there is when it comes to plans. I mean I could probably come up with something that moves 100lbs up and down but I'm not a hammer builder so looking to stick with proven designs.
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Well, with any utility (remote air pneumatic) hammer design, nothing changes with a heavier ram except the ram and anvil requirements. You want to make sure and get a good spool valve, and cylinder regardless, but most of the cylinders in the size range we use are good for up to quite a bit more weight than you're likely to try and build. 100lb home built air hammers are reasonably common. I would however do lots of research, as there have been plenty of improvements over the basic Kinyon style design which there are plans for over the years.

90% of the performance though is tied up in a) control design, and b) guide design. The rest of it is just having mass below to improve efficiency, and enough rigidity to not introduce stress and slop.


I've also heard that the Clay Spencer Tire Hammer design can be scaled up reasonably easily, and to quite good effect. Adding some mass really seems to improve the workability of these hammers, but even the ones built by the design, I've seen big differences in quality and power. One of the biggest things I see neglected is the base. Just like all the 400lb anvils flopping around like a beached whale, on some half-ass stacked plywood frame that's not even bolted down, any vibration, wobble, or movement, is hurting your forging significantly. A 100lb anvil on a properly built tri-pod stand, bolted down to concrete, will out forge the fuck out of a 400lber loosely straddled atop some garbage. Can't tell you how many tire hammers I've seen bouncing around on a dirt floor, with 1/4" or less plate for a base that's already deformed.

IMO, 1" thick plate is the minimum for a hammer base.
 
Thank you. So I was thinking today about HP efficiency. Would you say a press or hammer is more efficient in moving metal per HP. I think that came out wrong. I think what I'm asking is this. Does a 5HP press move metal 5 times faster then say a 1HP hammer. It seams like the big difference between the two is the press sucks heat out and the hammers actually put heat back into the work. Looking around on YouTube there are a bunch of Home build hammers and some seam to have a hard time doing much work and others seam to really move steel but both are simaler weight hammers. I love the idea of build a hammer but feal overwhelmed with the design. I see how thy work but don't understand them enough to just design one and hope it works good. It seams like there is much more to it then moving a weight up and down fast. The only reason I was thinking clay tire hammer was becaus it seams like a proven design that preforms well. But I don't know how it stacks up agents other home designes out there.
 
The reason that I mentioned a wide flat bottom and slightly beveled top die was that looks like what guys like Murray Carter are using on their Japanese mechanical hammers to spread that steel out very quickly. Ideal for kitchen knives that need to get wide and thin. I e-mailed Ken Zitur and asked about dies and they nice lady said that they currently ship the hammers with flat dies, but they could customize.
 
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