Power hammers

I got the plans. Yes, if you look at pictures the motor is on one side of a pivot and a little steel plate on the other. Genious really, step on peddle and motor swings over and engages tire and let off and motor weight pivots back and pushes a plate into the tire. Thing that's nice about the plans is everything is spelled out in cut lengths and part numbers. And how to assemble. I would very much be interested in seeing what frate would be as I would rather have more weight for less plus shipping the less weight for more. The anvil is only 36" long. Another thing is you can raise or lower the air in the tire to adjust how responsive it is. I have wondered if you can stretch the main tube out and use a longer ram for more weight. Don't know if it's that simple or not.
 
Well there's a couple ways we could do. I still have a pile of 7.75 x 3" bars that can be cut 36" long. Or, we can stack 2" thick round cut outs, various diameters.
 
I think the bars would be better. A direct line to the bottom plate and ground. Where the disks are stacked and could absorb the energy between them if thy are not perfectly mated. Would only need 2 of the plates which would give 6" by 7.5" x36" which is 458lbs. That's almost the perfect 1:10 ratio. Thy call for a 6" round which would be 288lbs.
 
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Where abouts in Washington are you guys?
I normally make it to Burien/Seattle about once a year, if not massively far away I might be able to time that trip with a hammer in if that ever happens
 
JTknives said:
It was this video that made me seriously think about a 50lb over somthing heavier
Click to expand...

Drawing out a 2" round like that with that narrow top round die is impressive on camera. I can do it faster with my press, I'm only saying that because it's not applicable to the work I'm personally planning on doing with a hammer and doesn't indicate it will be good at other things. Javand has explained it much better than I ever could but for making damascus I personally will want a little heavier. I'm thinking 75lb or 100lb.

The part he explained about moving metal when it's thinner I don't know how to articulate very well. But I'm guessing that a 50lb isn't going to move thinner material at the rate I want it to. The thinner the work gets the less it retains heat and the harder it is to "spread" with flatter dies.

I don't intend to ever make the amount of damascus he does, but for me it will cost me about the same amount of time and money to build a 100lb vs a 50lb, and if the 100lb can be tweaked with a brake and possibly the addition of a VFD to the tire clutch/brake system so that it's nimble in forging shapes as well as more forceful than any 50lber then that's what I want to build.
 
A 50 with drawing dies will move thin material very well... it keeps it hot longer if you work that angle. But if you want to run flat dies and still be able to draw, then yes a 100 or bigger would be much better.

Geoff, my shop is about 4.5 hours drive east from Seattle. Or, you could take Hwy. 3 east from Abbotsford, out past Hope and Princeton, and hook up with 97 South in Osoyoos, cross the border, and drive about 1/2 hour south. Bit of a trek, it would be cool to have you...
 
Just a note on steel prices; you should be able to get 1018 new, for $1.50 or less per lb. from any supplier that isn't trying to gouge non account customers.

Shoot for a 10:1 anvil to yup weight ratio. It's possible to get by with less but it'll be less powerful than it should be. In a perfect world you'd want 20:1.

Check KZ100's anvil configuration if you want to see an option that'll work for stacking multiple plates without losing power or having issues.
 
Once I got over the whole "huh?" thing, that struck me as a really clever solution. So any updates on the MZ 75
?
javand said:
Check KZ100's anvil configuration if you want to see an option that'll work for stacking multiple plates without losing power or having issues.
Click to expand...
 
jdm61 said:
Once I got over the whole "huh?" thing, that struck me as a really clever solution. So any updates on the MZ 75
?
Click to expand...


Yeah I agree, and ultimately, it is. I doubt there's any measurable let alone, perceivable, difference in performance. On the other hand, for doing one off's, any of us with a bit of patience should be able to find a big piece of solid round or square at a local scrap yard.

Even if they have nothing on hand, let them know what you're looking for and leave a number, they'll probably find one for you. I know many/most scrap yards don't allow people to come pick through and buy anymore, but even still, most would be willing to sell you a big chunk of steel at 2-3x the going wholesale price. Which still puts you at around 1/4 the retail price or less.




Regarding the MZ75, Delivery got delayed until Tuesday unfortunately. So hopefully by next weekend.
 
I'm about 1.5hr drive away from Salem. On the other side of the pond
 
Out of curiosity does anyone know what the average cost to build a tire hammer is? Assuming you had to purchase all the parts?

-Clint
 
Your big expense is the anvil. I know thy do hammer builds where every one gets a hammer. I think the entry fee is $1500 plus. Seams like the bigest upfront cost is the anvil. I love in the plans he say don't contact him asking if you can use a tube filled with stuff. Nothing beats a big chunk of steel. I asked at work who we use for out steel suplyer. I'm going to contact them becaus I think it's under a buck a pound for a36/1018.
 
Don't ask for the supplier, ask for the guy who picks up the turnings :D
 
JTknives said:
I think the bars would be better. A direct line to the bottom plate and ground. Where the disks are stacked and could absorb the energy between them if thy are not perfectly mated. Would only need 2 of the plates which would give 6" by 7.5" x36" which is 458lbs. That's almost the perfect 1:10 ratio. Thy call for a 6" round which would be 288lbs.
Click to expand...
A 3 foot long 6 inch round bar of cold rolled 1045 is around $750 from Speedy Metals before freight. A 6 x 36 bar of hot rolled, heat treated 4140 (27-32 Rc) is like $711. Hot rolled 1018 is like $525 and a hair over $2 a pound. I would think that 1018 would be just find if you planned to used dies. On a semi-related topic, would a 4 inch bar of 1045 or 4140 be ideal for a round post anvil?
 
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Salem Straub said:
A 50 with drawing dies will move thin material very well... it keeps it hot longer if you work that angle. But if you want to run flat dies and still be able to draw, then yes a 100 or bigger would be much better.

Geoff, my shop is about 4.5 hours drive east from Seattle. Or, you could take Hwy. 3 east from Abbotsford, out past Hope and Princeton, and hook up with 97 South in Osoyoos, cross the border, and drive about 1/2 hour south. Bit of a trek, it would be cool to have you...
Click to expand...
I've drove a lot longer for less interesting things lol
I'll see about making it if this ever happens
 
jdm61 said:
A 3 foot long 6 inch round bar of cold rolled 1045 is around $750 from Speedy Metals before freight. A 6 x 36 bar of hot rolled, heat treated 4140 (27-32 Rc) is like $711. Hot rolled 1018 is like $525 and a hair over $2 a pound. I would think that 1018 would be just find if you planned to used dies. On a semi-related topic, would a 4 inch bar of 1045 or 4140 be ideal for a round post anvil?
Click to expand...

Yeah, no reason to use tool steel for the anvil, nobody does. Get the cheapest steel you can find, that you know is mild. In fact, some odd-ball tool steel may have more issues with cracking where ever/how ever, your dies mount.

One common method of die mounting, used on the Pheonix/Bulls, and I think Ken's hammers, which is easier than machining a dovetailed sow block, is to drill/tap 5/8" holes on a 5" circle, usually at angle, 4 locations, so you can mount the dies facing different ways depending on hammer setup, then you use 6" round, 1" or so thick, for the base plates for dies, and you can weld various dies to this, and then HT, or cut them integral from 6" diameter tool steel of choice, and drill two holes for the mounting screws, on either side of the dies.



As to the question of post anvil, if you're going to harden it, just use 1045. Easier to HT, and it'll hold up just fine, in fact, the vast majority of antique anvil face plates are probably something similar. It's also about the optimal steel to use for hammers and top tooling, at least, until you get all wrapped up in the mental masturbation of "optimal steel" on paper considerations. ;)

Is some high alloy tool steel theoretically better? Absolutely, and if we were pushing the tool/material to it's limits, it'd be foolish not to use it, but when you're only utilizing a tiny fraction of it's toughness/strength/wear resistance, whatever, you're just overcomplicating things and throwing money at something for no reason. It's like having a 500hp super car that you never drive faster than 25, just to go to the grocery store once a week, and you don't even care what it looks like, more hp has to be better right? ;)

1045 is dead simple to HT, using anything available, heat source, quench method, and tempering. A fire, a pond, and a torch could get you there with some consideration.

Edit: sorry I get a bit ranty, not directed at anyone, especially you jdm61. ;)
 
I talked to my maintenance supervisor (making him a Damascus skinner) today about the hammer build. And he told me I can order anything I those through the lumber mill and then just pay them when it's delivered. I asked about scrap chunks for anvils and he said I could have this for scrap price. Score., I see a much bigger hammer in my future.

It's 5.375" in diameter.
Photo%20Oct%2001%2C%208%2037%2011%20PM.jpg


And 22ft long-1700lbs.
Photo%20Oct%2001%2C%208%2036%2057%20PM.jpg


Photo%20Oct%2001%2C%208%2038%2017%20PM.jpg


Even comes with cast iron Babbitt berrings.

Now how do I configure that into a 1000-1500lb anvil ;)
 
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